Le Tour: Too Hot to Handle

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11th July 2021


The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast


EPISODE 277: Le Tour: Too Hot to Handle


SPONSOR: Jenson USA


HOST: Carlton Reid


GUESTS: Donna Tocci and Jim Moss


TOPICS: Marketing specialist Donna Tocci, lawyer Jim Moss and show host Carlton Reid discuss their highlights so far of the 2021 Tour de France. Plus a little bit of US trade news. And Jim’s dogs.

TRANSCRIPT

Carlton Reid 0:13
Welcome to Episode 277 of the spokesman cycling podcast. This show was recorded on Sunday 11th of July 2021.

David Bernstein 0:24
The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Jenson USA, where you’ll always find a great selection of products at amazing prices with unparalleled customer service. For more information, just go to Jensonusa.com/thespokesmen. Hey everybody, it’s David from the Fredcast cycling podcast at www.Fredcast.com. I’m one of the hosts and producers of the Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast. For shownotes links and all sorts of other information please visit our website at www.the- spokesmen.com. And now, here are the spokesmen.

Carlton Reid 1:09
Hi there I’m Carlton Reid and welcome to today’s episode of the Spokesmen Cycling podcast brought to you in association with Jenson USA. Today’s show is a smidgen of US bike trade news squeezed into an hour of Tour de France chit chat. Joining me from the baking/raining US — delete as appropriate — are outdoor lawyer Job Moss (and that’s outdoor as in skiing, cycling and mountaineering, not Jim practicing laws outside) and marketing specialist Donna Tocci. It’s another Tour de France day in the boiling, boiling hot Pyrenees. The ride has ended. And we’re going to talk about that. First off, and the person who suggested that that we should talk about that is the person we’re introduced first. And that’s Donna. Hi there, Donna. Hi.

Donna Tocci 2:05
It’s so great to be back on with both of you.

Carlton Reid 2:08
And the both of us is actually I’ll bring Jim in straightaway. Given the fact that somebody else in the shadow. Okay, Jim, how you doing? I’m doing great. Hi, everybody. Donna, I was going to talk to you fast before I brought him in. But I’ll come straight back to you anyway. Because we were talking before the I press record and this before we go you got to have Jim on the same call. And we were talking about I guess, as people do we talk we start talking about weather. And Donna, you were saying it was rainy for you. It’s rainy for me also. And we’re then thinking about what’s what’s what David is suffering from we know what he’s suffering from because he’s told us he’s going up into the mountains to it to escape the heat. We know absolutely that Tim living in So Cal is going to be roasting. And we assume, Jim, that you are also suffering from a wave is that would that be right? Yes. Haha gym.

Jim Moss 3:08
Glenwood Springs two days ago was 100 Grand Junction was 106 year record. We’ve had five 100 degree days here in Denver, where normally we would have three or four for the whole summer. And even the mountains are. I mean, it’s always up in the mountains. I’ve been up in the mountains every Friday for the last eight weeks building mountain bike trails and it’s even hot up there. It’s it’s quite ridiculous. And more importantly, when this heatwave now in May, we got so much rain. We didn’t turn our sprinklers on and I have mosquito problems at two Boy Scout camps that I help. They’ve never had mosquitoes. I mean, they just never had it but there’s so much rain in May and now in June we’re roasting right so we’re expecting the place to then catch on fire. I mean,

Carlton Reid 4:13
yeah, you’ve got that to come Haven’t you so don’t tell us about what you’re talking about. I’m what maybe the Tour de France are gonna have to the organisers are gonna have to do in the in the very probably the very, very near future.

Donna Tocci 4:25
That’s always surprised me being an event organiser for road races. That road racing with

Carlton Reid 4:33
this is running, running this running.

Donna Tocci 4:35
Yep. Running, that you try and have the events in the summer as early as possible, because you don’t want to have the heat exhaustion or heatstroke or anything like that. And it has always surprised me that the tour doesn’t start early. The stages don’t start early. They start them in the heat of the day. They’re they’re talking about the heat even more so this year, I think and you know we won’t go down the rabbit Climate change. But um, but you know, it’s, it’s scary what could happen to some of these writers, you know, their body temperatures can rise, they can have seizures, they could just become dizzy, lightheaded, fall off their bikes, nausea, you know, all of that rapid breathing and heartbeats. All of that is symptoms of heatstroke or heat exhaustion. And you just you worry about these guys, after a while they’re on their bikes for four and a half hours a day in the blazing sun, you know, putting max effort. Yes, they are amazing athletes and their bodies have been trained. But you know, there comes a point when I’m surprised they haven’t had a problem yet network.

Carlton Reid 5:45
Because when we do small teams or move we follow the professional riders, including like in the Tour de France, the attap you don’t start at the time they start, you know, they’re starting like midday, one o’clock, you know, when you do the the tap, you’re starting at seven o’clock for that very reason. So it’s almost like we need a duty of care for these riders in that, you know, we’re we’re putting them through stuff that clearly for TV schedules, you know, that’s why the time is, is there right now? Because it’s it’s really good for, for getting on TV. And if you have it, you know, incredibly early, it’s going to start mucking up those kind of schedules. Jim, are we are we from a legal you know, duty of care point of view, should they be looking at this much, much harder?

Jim Moss 6:31
Well, in the United States would be an OSHA issue, whether or not your employees have the ability to get cool. I’m not quite sure about Europe. And and you know, your professional so you agree to race in the conditions that are there. In cycling also has a slightly different issue, I cycle in really hot weather because I maintain a speed that provides unless I’ve just got nothing but tailwind, some breeze coming at you. So when you sweat, you you don’t feel as hot because the moisture gets whisked away pretty quick. But you’ve got to have plenty of water. And you know, in Denver, a lot of our city parks took out their water fountains over the last couple of years. And so a lot of times, I’ll plan my rides based on where I can get more water. You know, I started out with a one water bottle that half the waters already been frozen in and I add more ice and water and the other one I just had ice and water. And then knowing that, you know, the second half of the ride is going to be lukewarm stuff I got out of the spicket someplace, but I at least know where there’s water.

Carlton Reid 7:41
And that person getting enough gym, the pros are getting enough water, you know, we see the domestiques you know, bring in bring in? What is that an SU? You know that there’s that duty of care? We’ve got that covered? It’s just the damn heat,

Jim Moss 7:53
right? And if it kills somebody and it will it think about how hot the asphalt is, if you go down, think about this, what tires you’re writing, if the asphalt gets sticky, you know, I mean, those are going to be real issues coming out of the mountains, you’re on a hard cold asphalt going up in the mountains, and then you come down to the city, you drop 2000 feet temperature changes 20 degrees and you’re hot asphalt. It’s going to be interesting. So yeah, it’s gonna be a problem, they’re eventually gonna have to switch either to higher starting times, or they got to change the whole tour de July is going to be the tour of Antarctica if you can swim. And and you know that maybe they go to sometime in September, October. Most of the races here nowadays have sort of disappeared. We have evening races, a lot of evening crits and gravel races. But weekends, you know, the big long rides are now all May and September

Carlton Reid 8:58
and be tough to move it from like the month because that’s kind of traditional, but there’s no reason to say you can’t have this at 7pm. You know, that’d be actually from a US point of view. That’d be quite good, wouldn’t it? you’d actually having a slightly more reasonable time for you.

Jim Moss 9:15
You have a boy than your then your face and light issues? Yeah, well, I mean, they they have to get done before it gets. I had to get done an hour before get started. So you, you’re probably not on a four or five hour day, you’re not gonna be missing much time starting at two or three, four hours later, you’re still writing to the heat. That you know they have to start at 7am in the morning. The road races start at seven or 8am. Yeah. Just no other way around.

Donna Tocci 9:46
Yeah, and your body. Sometimes your body actually heats up when you stop. So yes, Jim, you’re right. And when you’re on the bike, you have a breeze if you’re going you know as fast as they go but when you stop is Sometimes when it catches up to you, yeah, so um, yeah, I’m, I’m interested. I have not heard that they’ve had this problem before, but I would be interested to hear in the future what what happens is they’re talking about, you know, for the US I did the conversion, it’s like 8687 degrees. While they’re riding, that’s just really four and a half hours. Yeah.

Carlton Reid 10:27
Yeah, no, it’s it’s absolutely, Punisher and some riders clearly will, will be able to cope with that better than others. Now, I’ve obviously that we’ve all seen the famous images of people, you know, with a bead on running. I mean, this is like, you know, 60 years we’ve seen this, this is not new, that there’s been heat in the Alps and the pyramids and stuff. But you see, a bead on being been, you know, sprayed across a rider to call them down. What I’ve seen in Portland, Oregon, which I noticed is actually one of the places had a heatwave, just very recently, probably even still now. I thought I was on a bike shop when I was there a few years ago. hoop which is basically that the riders, anybody can go through it, a rider goes through a hoop that’s actually made up of a hose pipe, and they’ve drilled little holes. So when you go through it is a cooling sheet of water. And that sounded like a fantastic thing to do individually outside the shop. But maybe they should be started doing this for the for the riders where you’re not getting somebody coming along with a bead on down the back of your neck, just cool the riders down by spraying them with water.

Jim Moss 11:40
You know, I was on a ride that makes my ride on Thursday, Thursday, and several of the sprinkler systems were going along the ride and I kept riding into them because they were shooting into the to the bike trail and the right into them and get cooled down a little bit. It’s it’s you just use what’s available. You know, rainstorm, quick rainstorm, left water on the trail and wrongly a ride around the water and we were all riding through it and washed bikes away later, but it cools you down. But yeah, it’s it’s gonna be a problem, it’s gonna be a major problem here in the West.

Carlton Reid 12:22
Drink that stuff. You know a lot, a lot of the a lot of the the the systems are set, if it’s agricultural, in spraying the field, a lot of that is actually chemicals in there as well as water. Yeah, I know, when I used to tour in Israel. That was actually one of the things you must not do is drink the hydroponics, you know, the system going through the fields that are watering making the desert bloom. In effect, you don’t drink that stuff, because it’s half of it is just pure, pure chemicals. Anyway, none of that was was in our show notes to show topics to begin with. So Donna, thank you ever so much for bringing that that’s it’s a phenomenal point that they’re going to have to address that. If not very, very soon, then at some point, they’re going to have to absolutely change the timings for these events because of their heat. Now. We’re now you know, best part of two weeks in to the race and we are going to go backwards a little bit. And that is do you agree that it’s good that the tour is no longer the organisers are no longer going to be suing that spectator? who caused the crash Tony Martin’s crash in on the opening stage. Donna, do you think they that’s right for them to do that? Or should they have pursued that person?

Donna Tocci 13:41
Oh, I have a lot of thoughts about this. I don’t know about legal Jim can talk about that. But, you know, suing her for for just being stupid. And I hate that word. But this really was, um, she wasn’t malicious. She didn’t have any intent. She was just being stupid. I’m shocked that this doesn’t happen every year. Because you see the end. We’ve talked about this before, in years past is and there is no way to barrier off the entire course for the day. But the people are standing so close. They have flags, they have signs. And when you go into the mountains, they are literally screaming in the faces of these guys and flying their flags in their faces. I am shocked that this doesn’t happen every year. It was terrible and all of that but there was no intent. There was no maliciousness. I don’t see how you could sue. But Jim can answer.

Carlton Reid 14:53
Well, Jim, the legal legal Eagle of the show. What Where do you stand on this?

Jim Moss 14:58
Well, it’s French lawsuits. Very different from the US law, I had those questions pop up when I posted the article. So whether or not we can sewer in the United States, it probably be difficult. But in France lawsuits a lot easier or a lot more difficult to do. But she didn’t get arrested criminally. And that’s probably what should happen. The issue is, is do you make an example of her to prove to the rest of the spectators to get the heck off the roads? What was it two, three years ago when the motorcycle stopped, and, you know, the riders ran into the back of the motorcycle, and one rider grabbed a bike and took off running, you know, we got to get the spectators off the road. And if, if they get into one at the same time, it’s one of the fantastic parts of being at a bicycle race. I know it’s so close. Think about the guy who always has the helmet on and says you helmet with antlers. And he shows up racing across the road of this race. And he comes running out of the woods someplace and runs along with the with the riders. Nice smart enough, he stays out of the way. But it’s some other races. I mean, when you’re close enough, you can knock the cell phone of the person taking a selfie out of their hands onto the ground, then we’ve got to get some intelligence into these people. And if making a martyr or making an example out of this woman is what it takes, then go for it, do whatever you have to do, because at the speed some of these writers are writing even though it may be uphill, it’s still dangerous. We can see that in the in the video. I think the real issue is is should they still be based on how long this last. You know, if if the rest of the tour people are staying off the course. Then it worked. If it works for the next year, people stay off the course. That’s a success but but I think that you need to tell these people they have to get out of the way. You know, when I’ve when I’ve had immediate badgers one time I got to close in the motorcycle driver gave me the nasty look, you know, because he actually had to slow down for a second light jumped. And, you know, that’s looking through a camera lens and not doing a good job of calculating through the lens when people went where people were. It didn’t cause a problem for the race. It caused the problem for the motorcycle rider and that was his job. But, you know, even the media people screw up once a while. But we got to keep people off the course. Yeah, get close. Enjoy the riders, you know, see the sweat. Yeah, the whole time. What’s been bothering me is one of one of these people have COVID of these writers are sucking in massive amounts of air and over, you know, someone’s screaming in their face. And you’re getting it you’re getting whatever disease they have, you know, you know, you sort of want to ride with a mask he said you wouldn’t go to just sucking enough oxygen I suspect

Donna Tocci 18:23
or, or sergeant. If you know if there’s someone who is trying to do harm to the to the riders or the race, ethnic and again, you can’t you can’t barricade the whole road. So I mean, this is going to continue to be an issue but but Jimmy You’re right. I mean, they’re they’re just it’s a balance between wanting to be that close and rider safety. Hmm.

Jim Moss 18:51
I think the picture shows a lot there’s a difference in my opinion, of getting close to the racers, watching the racers getting encouraging them to go harder, faster, better. supporting your country, your team, whatever. This had nothing to do with that. She just wanted to be on TV. And I know she got TV she got beaten. She did a good job. she

Carlton Reid 19:21
succeeded. Yeah, yep. Well done grandmother.

Jim Moss 19:25
So I think in that case, yeah, maybe you you do take her down because it had nothing to do with racing had to do with ego.

Carlton Reid 19:33
Okay, so, Jim, you’d be an awful judge because you’d be sending people down left right and centre Donna, you’re clearly the wisdom of Solomon. You were much much more lenient on people. Let’s Let’s there’s so many talking points around this tour potentially one of them being well, we already know who the winner is, which is kind of takes away the Jeopardy angle. But despite that, there’s still obviously tonnes and tonnes of things. have already gone on in this tour already make absolute belter now one of them from from a from a global point of view Never mind a British point of view. It’s just Mark Cavendish. So Mark Cavendish is equalling of Eddie mercs his record is phenomenal he you know it’s up there with the the absolute best of any British sports person, you know ever you know I liken it to Roger Bannister you know breaking the two minute mark and stuff. It’s like it’s just amazing. a certain person might not have taken Cavendish his victories Quite so. Well Is that so let me just read what Eddie Merckx actually said that we don’t know the content. I don’t know the context of why Eddie said this. I have interviewed Eddie, I have had dinners with Eddie I have written with Eddie. He is absolutely famously grumpy. So what he said absolutely fits in to the pattern of this sounds absolutely the what like what Eddie would say. Anyway, I’ll read it out to you. So it is. This is Eddie. I think somebody asked him on I think this Belgian TV or Italian TV, they asked him a question about what do you think about Cavendish and he came up with this he said, I want 34 stages by winning Sprint’s I’m not going to do his his accent By the way, in the mountains in time trials and going on the attack on the descent. Let’s not forget the five yellow jerseys I’ve got at home plus the 96 days I award. Does that that not seem much? Clearly he was riled. So the question must have upset him. But do you guys not think he could have just said congratulations to Kevin that’s it. Just Say No more? What What do you think? What does that be submerge any of his his memory? Donna, what do you what do you think about what he said?

Donna Tocci 21:47
Well, I did a little research because the last couple of years have taught me that just a little blurb on Twitter isn’t always the right context. Really? I did not know that. So I went and I found an article and he he did say that but he started with there’ll be no problem. If Cavendish equals my record, I won’t lose any sleep over it. If he does it. I’ll congratulate him because it’s not easy to win 34 Sprint’s and then he went on to say, of course, there’s a difference between us. And then the quote that you set. So in context, it’s a little bit different. Um, it’s still

Carlton Reid 22:33
quiet, anyway.

Donna Tocci 22:35
But before the race, somebody asked him about cab and the prospect of him, you know, catching the record. And he said, to be honest, I no longer believed in his comeback. Miracles can sometimes happen in cycling. I think that’s such a miracle. So I don’t know. I mean, could he have congratulated him a little bit more? Maybe. But that’s his personality. And I don’t think we should be reading him too much. I think he will absolutely. Congratulate Cavendish and he should and, you know, records are made to be broken. But you know, he’s working and that’s okay.

Carlton Reid 23:17
He’s quirky. You. You’re definitely right, then thank you for bringing some of the context in there done. I really don’t think it absolutely exonerated at all. But yes, thank you for bringing that up, Jim. With that new bit of context, is that alter maybe anything that you might have been thinking about? Or maybe you didn’t even need that context to think what you’re going to say?

Jim Moss 23:36
All right, first of all, anyone who has three autobiographies written by the time they’re age 30, I am, I think, a little whacked out just some ridiculousness going on there. The personality there is interesting. Um, and so I also think there’s a difference. I mean, the sport has definitely evolved. We now have specialists. like there’s no tomorrow when Marx was writing, we had people who are going to win the Tour, and we had people who were helping him win the Tour. We didn’t have teams that showed up with just sprinters hoping to win, you know, races or just with mountain riders. You know, it’s, it’s like everything in life. We’ve got it down to finite degrees. Everyone does specific things. You know, marketing now includes posting on social media and communications because posting on social media, and, you know, obviously, that didn’t exist 20 years ago, and at the same time, I also think Burke’s accomplishments mean a lot more. And I think because of the fact that he won races, the entire rather than just winning spreads. How many times have we seen Cavendish drop out of the race after winning three or four Sprint’s knowing he wasn’t going to go to the finish, or feel good or something. How many times has he stood on the podium going? Yeah, I’m the sprint winner.

Carlton Reid 25:14
I think we know there’s differences, you know, between what max did and what Cavendish did we kind of we kind of know there’s that there. I’m just looking at this point of view of just, you know, the differences there. But still, you would as as with emotional intelligence, as a person you would hold back now you’re also with with knowing, you know, what, how journalists are going to frame this, and how they will pick out quotes, you would know, to keep quiet. When you you just repeat you’d be like a politician almost. And maybe that’s maybe that’s a good thing that that mercs isn’t a politician. And that he’s just said what he thinks. But yeah, they are journalists are going to pick that quote, they are going to zoom in on that bit, when all he should have said was, congratulations, and keep his his his thought maybe a bit more private. Well, that’s what I

Donna Tocci 26:07
was looking for, though. So we don’t know if he’s called Cavendish. We don’t know any of that. And also, so Eddie is 76. And me being a little philosophy, philosophical, is Do you think he’s trying to stay relevant? Like he doesn’t want people to forget about him or forget what he did? And so that’s why he was listing off his accomplishments for Jim, to your point, is there something going on three out of biographies by the time he was 30? I don’t know. But, you know, at 76, maybe he feels the sports moving on from him, and he wants to be relevant for another week or so

Carlton Reid 26:42
I don’t know. He will never not be relevant, or he will always be known as the most accomplished to run it for the for the reasons Jim said, you know, he did it in when he won the race, he didn’t just win win status, we know that he’s absolutely going to be the pinnacle of the sport forever.

Jim Moss 27:00
So that’s the difference. Everybody is jumping on Cavendish bandwagon for what he’s accomplished. And that’s fantastic. But and Cavendish himself always appreciates his team, because it takes, you know, 234 people to get him where he’s gone. Now. But when you look at the Tour de France and the great writers in the Tour de France, Cavendish, his name is not on that list. It’s the winners. The people who wear the yellow jersey on the final day that matter, not the ones who are there just to I mean, I just don’t see sprinting as any big thing.

Carlton Reid 27:44
This is such a shame. Wow. No, I allow your dog to bite you. There you go. Because your dog was totally grumbling when you when you’re talking about Cavendish and mercs Hey, I sent that your dog Jim was very much in Kevin dishes camp. Yeah, he was. He was he was he was grumbling when you were talking about Cavendish not being as good as mercs I think your dog

Jim Moss 28:14
there was another dog walking around outside my dog has no opinion about

Donna Tocci 28:19
but you more agree with mercs comments than not then.

Jim Moss 28:26
Yeah, I do. I also think that a 76 year old guy who’s accomplished everything he can has the right to say that he wants as well as the right for the for the reporters and journalists to take it out of context and do what you want. But if if if currently said Jim, fly over to the UK, we’re going to dinner with either mercs or Cavendish. I’ve never met Cavendish. I have talked to Eddie marks a couple times. I’m still gonna go talk to mercs. Um, I mean, I I cannot do it. I can’t do what either those two gentlemen have done. I and I’m not a sprinter for sure. I mean, I’m the last thing you’d ever call me as a sprinter. And it’s amazing when he takes off. It’s amazing how he can follow his lead out people when everyone was trying to cut him off. So I’m not taking Cavin I’m not taking I don’t want to take anything away from Cavendish. But I think taking anything away from mercs on what he said about it. It is is wrong. I think that there is a big difference between winning sprinters jerseys winning races. The way emerged versus winning races the way Cavendish did I think there’s a colossal difference Okay, so

Donna Tocci 29:47
alright, so Carlton, can I go back and this is similar topic because who’s going to wear the jerseys when they get to Paris, is you said the tour is already we already know who’s going to win. But do we? Because you have people with signs on the side of the road. You have people who get sick, you have people who crash. I mean, this is something my dad always said about car racing. You knew I would have to get that in there is that there’s a reason why you race the race. So, you know, yes, it looks like it would be.

Carlton Reid 30:23
So Donnie, he’s gonna stay around. He’s gonna stay up, right? So basically, okay, barring crashes, and barring being taken out by a spectator or barring, you know, Eddie mercs leaping on and suddenly pulling people from bikes for daring to win his race barbering that, then yes, yes. We don’t know who wins. But we do know who’s going to win if none of that happens. And yes, all of those things absolutely can happen. And we really don’t want them to happen. We want this to be a pure race of athletes. A little less. Absolutely, yes, yes. But barring all these miniscule things that might happen, from an athletic point of view, we know who’s going to win. So so that has taken the Jeopardy and it was almost the first one. When was the first time he was in the you know, it was a fourth or fifth day where he was clearly going to take that jersey to Paris if he doesn’t fall off. So does that not, you know, take away a lot of the shine from this year’s race, Donner just knowing that all we’re looking out for is is false. We’re not looking for somebody Really? Are we really expecting anybody to power past him in the pennies?

Donna Tocci 31:37
No, I don’t think so. And I and let me make this clear, because I don’t want nasty grammes later. I don’t want anything to happen to him. That’s not why I said that. I just said it, because you don’t know. I mean, that’s why you race the race, right? I don’t think provided he stays up. Right. And he stays healthy. I don’t think anyone’s going to catch him. I think that the question and Jim, I’d love to hear your answer for this is, is Cavendish going to make it over the mountains.

Jim Moss 32:10
When you get the announcers, the US announcer saying the cut off time is in 40 minutes. And it looks like Cavendish is going to make it sort of bugs me when when you have a Domestique that’s been hustling water bottles to the front, hustling, you know, things around doing a poll, you know, working hard the entire race. Yeah, then the cutoff time means something because those people are already exhausted by the time you know, they get to the base of the mountain and they still get over. Versus the announcers are now following whether or not a sprinter or the sprinters are going to make it because

Carlton Reid 32:59
cities middle legs, these little legs up or down. It’s so hard for Mark I mean really isn’t built. He’s not really built for this race. If you if you really, really be brutally, he has got to be, you know, shepherded over those hills.

Donna Tocci 33:17
He’s here. So there’s Carlton when you’re saying does it take some of the shine out of the race? I think that’s where the announcers and the journalists, they’re focusing on Cavendish? Not necessarily for the record, but also for the drama, if you will. Does he get over the mountain does that you know, that’s where the story is.

Jim Moss 33:37
Do you think there was ever a comment? Do you think there was ever an issue of any merge getting over the mountains and getting in for the cut off time? So we have a point, we have a person in the Tour de France riding with a jersey leader’s jersey, not the yellow one but but a different colour. And we are worried about them not getting thrown out of the race. And yet at certain points in the race, we say they are the greatest writer ever, because they can sprint.

Carlton Reid 34:11
Are you Oh, does that mean you’re not you’re not quite up with the fact that there are speciality so you have sprinters and you have mountain goats and you have GC riders are you are you decrying that fact? Would you rather see like the van out of this world library, you know, all rounders, would you rather have a race of all rounders, Jim?

Jim Moss 34:34
Yeah, that I thought that I’d rather have a race. I just think that it makes more sense. I think we’re taking a lot away from the wear of the yellow jersey with the polka dots in the green so whatever colours there are in these racist Great example, who’s the female I crapped my brain With that female writer of crash to the World Championships, but was expected to win from the United States. Anyway, when she won the the Colorado classic last time she raised here, she wore every single jersey, no other person was wearing a jersey, she had won them all. That’s a racer, in my opinion, she could leave in the mountains, she could do the sprints, she could win the end, no matter what the course was the gym days, and she won all four jerseys.

Carlton Reid 35:41
Isn’t that all the beauty of the Tour de France and and that’s the grand tour is in that you have got races within races. So if you do have somebody who’s clearly dominant and can win and everything, and in fact, you don’t have Jeopardy after the first four days, and it’s a three week tour, at least you have these other elements. And that’s what they were designed for, you know, these jerseys were brought in to do exactly that, to have different element to the race, you would have races within races, because we all know that the polka dot jersey tends not to be the best climber, or the genuine, the best climate of the tour is going to be the person who goes out and get to the point and then probably drops back and doesn’t, you know, is at risk of being like almost like Cavendish and not finishing that day’s stage. But that’s also a plus point, isn’t it? You can’t just have everybody being a generalist. Otherwise the race could be over in the first three days. And it’s a three week talk. Jim,

Jim Moss 36:38
I’m thinking, I don’t know when I tried to figure out when the race was over in the first three days. And Chloé Dygert is the name of the free throws thinking up. I don’t buy into the idea that I’m more like Donna along the lineup, I think there’s always a chance that the race can change. I think that is why the tour is such a fantastic race is because and until that, you know next last day, whatever that race is, it can always change something can always go wrong. Bikes no matter how well they’re maintained. Break. Yep. And so I think that’s the issue of the tour. I think that the other jerseys are proud on to provide entertainment to keep people interested in a three week long tour, who may not follow all three weeks, who, you know, will just show up for the last day or just watch weekend. Those other jerseys provide entertainment during the race. Are they racist within the race? Sure. Are they marketing issues? I think they’re more of that than anything else. And as that then created its own? Has the marketing created its own reality. Yeah, we have bicycle racers who are on the big racers who do one thing now they ride it in, we have racers who only do one thing they ride to the top. You know, I mean, it’s so so the sprint jersey used to be worn by the person who won at the end of the race. Now the sprint has now during each ride, we have sprint points mid race, we’re getting a race within a race within a race.

Donna Tocci 38:30
So Jim, do you think with the different jerseys maybe being marked more marketing and this sprinting with, you know, within the race, do you think that takes away from the purist the generalist and takes away from those folks racing the race? I think a generalist like a mercs you know, who did it all? Do you think that takes away from those guys?

Jim Moss 38:58
I don’t know if it takes away as much as we have a team that knows they can’t win. So they train and get something else. I the winner, the total people accents. I represent so many different sports categories. People ask me who are the toughest people that I know. And they talk football every single time here in the United States. And I think that’s just a joke. I say that if you want to meet some of the toughest people in the world, you should find a bicycle racer and a mountain near bicycle racers can do it for 21 days at all out for 21 days and it’s brutal. And a mountain near does for 72 hours all out. And you know, life is on the line. Those are the toughest people I’ve ever met. And some of the nicest people I’ve ever met and skinniest and yeah, and skinniest also. And yet a football player who believes he’s the toughest person out there. You’re not allowed to talk to me if you get you know, they’re surrounded by people. You can’t get near them. I’ve never seen anyone you know who’s come off adverse to didn’t want to talk and would talk to anybody, that merchant in the street. Hey, did you know I just summited Everest? And look at the bicycle racers? Man, they’re just, it’s just brutal, brutal stress on your body. So do I think it takes away? No, I think that the whole tour is the winner. Do I think it adds different things to look for different reasons to watch the tour? Yes. And for that reason, I think it’s a beautiful and pre marketing idea. But

Carlton Reid 40:47
let’s not forget Jim did, the whole tour was founded, the whole tour exists on selling you things. This is why this this exists. This is it. This is a marketing event. You know, it’s not a sporting event, just to happen to have a bit of sport as an element. It’s just to sell a little bit teams, these these are not the British team, the American team, the attain, these are commercial teams. So all these teams are trying to sell you things. So we’ve got to bear that in mind. This is just you’ve got to have all these changes. You’ve got to have like the speciality and the races within races, because you want people to keep watching and if you have a race over in the first five days, people stop watching people stop buying the product, they no longer buy the tiles or the cookers, you know, the Borah cookers, all these weird and wacky products that are on the the shirts of the Tour de France riders.

Donna Tocci 41:39
Right you get less awareness, your your sponsorship gets less awareness if people stop watching less eyeballs, people don’t come to the race. Absolutely. Really. No TV time. But Jim, we can have a whole philosophy of the whole talk about the toughest athletes because I would challenge definitely not football. I would challenge hockey players. No way. 90 minutes. Now, wait. But that’s not for this podcast, maybe we’ll do a different.

Jim Moss 42:16
I tell you an easy way to think about it, Donna, you get a hockey player, put 45 pounds on their back, put another 20 pounds of clothing on them and put five pounds on each foot and a mountaineering boots and have them hike uphill for three days.

Donna Tocci 42:33
I don’t know. But a lot of I don’t know about that. But I do know a lot of them cycle especially in the offseason to to keep in shape. And I know that some of the former pro hockey players are now taking up cycling. So

Jim Moss 42:51
I think it’s wonderful, but it’s not, it’s not the ability to do it. It’s the mental toughness that makes the difference. In my opinion, it is the toughness to get up the next day, after x hours of sleep, whatever it may be, and put on that same set of clothing and go out and do it again. And in the case of mountaineers, knowing that if they screw up their debt, and they’re not dead. No,

Carlton Reid 43:20
yeah, there’s there’s some genuine Jeopardy isn’t there, you’re gonna fall off the mountain, you kind of you’re dead. At this point of the show. I’d like that night to break for a commercial interlude. It will take us out but when we come back, we’re going to have a wee bit of US trade news, which is hot off the if these things exist anymore, hot off the press. And Jim will talk about that. And then we’re going to talk about our tour highlights each of us and I’ve got one. And I’m hoping Donna and Jim. Both have a highlight of this year’s tour. But for now, let’s go across to David.

David Bernstein 44:03
Hey, Carlton, thanks so much. And it’s it’s always my pleasure to talk about our advertiser. This is a longtime loyal advertiser, you all know who I’m talking about. It’s Jenson USA at Jensonusa.com/thespokesmen. I’ve been telling you for years now years, that Jenson is the place where you can get a great selection of every kind of product that you need for your cycling lifestyle at amazing prices, and what really sets them apart. Because of course, there’s lots of online retailers out there. But what really sets them apart is they’re on believable support. When you call and you’ve got a question about something, you’ll end up talking to one of their gear advisors, and these are cyclists. I’ve been there I’ve seen it. These are folks who who ride their bikes to and from work. These are folks who ride at lunch who go out on group rides after work because they just enjoy cycling so much. And and so you know that when you call, you’ll be talking to somebody who has knowledge of the products that you’re calling about. If you’re looking for a new bike, whether it’s a mountain bike, a road bike, a gravel bike, a fat bike, what are you looking for? Go ahead and check them out. Jenson USA, they are the place where you will find everything you need for your cycling lifestyle. It’s Jensonusa.com/thespokesmen. We thank them so much for their support. And we thank you for supporting Jenson USA. All right, Carlton, let’s get back to the show.

Carlton Reid 45:28
Thanks, David. And we are back with show 277 of the spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast we’re here we’re with with Donna and with Jim and Jim a whenever we we we, we pitch these the shows. And it’s good to have you both on by the way. We say what you want to talk about. And I was all tougher on silver and silver. And that’s all I put down. And if anything else down on the things to talk about, however, Jim, you did give something to talk about which which kind of like takes us back to when this first started this particular show it was very trade oriented. So you’ve got some us bicycle trade news you’d like to share. So go with that before we go for our our tour highlights?

Jim Moss 46:16
Well, there’s, we’re having another bike show, a commercial bike show here in the United States. It’s called The Big gear show. And it’s going to be held in Park City, Utah. third, fourth and fifth and August. It’s going to have more than cycling equipment there but the majority of the exhibitors are cyclists. So it’s the first

Carlton Reid 46:38
sketch and next year

Jim Moss 46:41
this coming August, this Yeah, yeah, this year in 3 months.

Carlton Reid 46:46
That’s crazy.

Jim Moss 46:48
Um, well, this show is outside the show is more like interbike demo in that everything is there’s no in indoor things that so you’re going to walk from booth to booth to booth on a giant parking lot and talk to people and in some of these booths, you’ll be able to grab a bike and go right it

Carlton Reid 47:07
is it Lance Camisica. So Lance was formerly of interbike. Then he had bike press camp and various says Atlanta is doing this.

Jim Moss 47:16
Well. No, Lance was hired to run the cycling portion of it. There was a trade show that gets started. Quick history Outdoor Retailer ran both interbike and the Outdoor Retailer trade show Outdoor Retailer for everything but cycling. They moved interbike out of Vegas, the cheap, easy place to have a trade show where anybody from the United States can go I hate Vegas, but it’s cheap. Anybody can get there to Reno and it died. So two guys had felt that that the paddlesports industry, which originally was a major part of Outdoor Retailer, had been treated badly. And they were correct by Outdoor Retailer by Nielsen at the time. And so they started up a show in Madison, Wisconsin called the paddle sports show. And it was a little show but a big success. The paddle sports industry came together again. They moved into Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, which sounds really weird, but Oklahoma has a great man made slalom to slalom courses, whitewater area. It’s pretty neat. But it’s still Oklahoma City. Oh, comments. So they then had the the idea of not bringing in clothing manufacturers. And I’ll tell you that reason in a second and just having gear, boats, bikes, climbing gear, shoes, that type of stuff, and then move the show to Park City, Utah, Utah, wanting any trade show they get their hands on, will probably spend a lot of money to get in there. The reason why there’s no clothing is clothing nowadays takes about 16 months to produce. So so that’s why Outdoor Retailer kept moving the show up to June. And yet for most retailers, you know, gyms, the beginning of their season, not the end, they don’t know how much money they made or how much money they have to spend next year. They only know what was a success this year, in June. They’re just opening the stores and they’re working hard then. So there’s a real controversy because the clothing manufacturers and even the ones that are showing up already have clothes, they’re they’re opened by dates that are you know, you didn’t have yet didn’t have your order. And already you weren’t going to get your order in nowadays. So by getting rid of the clothing manufacturers just having year which takes less time to produce there trying to get the show up and running. And the national bicycle dealer Association hopped on board, and so I’m looking forward to it. I know the two guys who started the show they’re they’re super great individuals, personal friends, and then they hired for show directors Lance coming aska to run the bike part and they hired Oh, what’s his name? Crap. He’s gonna give me so much grief. Kenji, Kenji artinian to run the outdoor part so people that that ran both shows for a long period of time and people have a great relationship with the best show directors of both shows the best people with the best personality the best people who understood what’s going on our hired run the shows, so we’ll have

Carlton Reid 50:41
a big friends I’ve been with them when they’ve been in the same place that they’ve been on site. Is there a website for this gym? Yes, there is. Hold on, I’ll find it for you the big gear calm.

Donna Tocci 50:56
Okay. A big year show.com But so, Jim, as I was looking at it this morning, I look there’s like 42 exhibitors you know everything from Camelback to a kayak company Adidas Sterling row, which surprised me because I thought they were just for arborists, but they do. They do other rope as well. It was really designs, which is motocross. So where are the bike companies though?

Jim Moss 51:23
Um, well, Diamond back. I’m in that diamond back. Oh, let’s see who else? I have no idea right now. I don’t really look Sterling rope started out as a rock climbing rope. While you’re right, it’s not Troy Lee designs like this. I have not looked at who’s there yet. Fat chance bicycles. Interesting. Um, it looks like it’s mostly sports. Still, I think that they’d struggle this year to get bike companies in because bike companies don’t need the extra business right now they are run off.

Donna Tocci 51:59
People are people doing trade shows this year. Because I do know from my road racing that a lot of the companies have decided not to do expos and things like that through the end of this year. So I wonder if that’s some of it. I realised it’s outdoors gym, but I wonder if that’s some of it, as well. But they’ve got a full I mean, I was looking, I was quite impressed. I have all these educational set sessions and networking time set out. I mean, it’s a it’s a big show for I don’t you know, if currently you hadn’t heard it was this year. And you know, are they really promoting it? Or is it kind of a test year?

Jim Moss 52:41
Well, they also have a different model, which is extremely interesting. They will push if you are a retailer, they put you up. And in some cases they fly you in. Yeah, they have a very different model about how they put on their shows.

Carlton Reid 53:02
It’s the it’s the bike bike press camp model. So you get the key people in, you put them in a nice ski chalet in a nice Mountain Resort in the summer. And then you sell them stuff,

Jim Moss 53:13
right. Although they brought they had this model. I don’t know if they’d ever been to the bike press camp or not. But they created this model prior to bringing Lance on. And I don’t I don’t know if it’s gonna work. I don’t know what’s going on. I know Oklahoma City when they just had paddlesports was working. But it wasn’t. People just weren’t happy with Oklahoma City. Although the demo was awesome, because it was so confined and but there’s so much stuff you could you can do. I also think of Park City is a problem. Getting Salt Lake is is a slight pain for most people. And then you got to get a shuttle or rent a car or whatever. I’m trying to get to Park City.

Carlton Reid 54:00
It’s 40 minutes though, Jim. That’s that’s, that’s that’s incredibly doable. Yeah. And now at tops.

Jim Moss 54:06
Yeah, but it’s still people. People want to land and in 10 minutes, be in their hotel room. And, you know, go out to have a good dinner. And whenever there’s a new show, everyone’s trying to figure out, I got invited to dinners and all the dinners are back in Salt Lake City because people who know Salt Lake City for the outdoor real retail trade show.

Donna Tocci 54:32
These guys have never tried and go to eurobike

Carlton Reid 54:35
Huh, well and get there.

Jim Moss 54:38
Yeah, it’s, you’re right. And it’s gonna be confusing. I wish them all the luck in the world. I’m going I’m going to support them. But like I said, you might not have heard about it because their motto is they only care about retailers and they only really care about retailers. That’s it. They they can care less they came from the paddlesports industry. So I think there’s something going on there. There’s a lot of housing here. Um, they have a, you can demo the mountain the road and you can take your boat over to the lake and demo it there. So it’s

Carlton Reid 55:11
a fabulous place to have a trade show. I know that for a fact and David would know that Frank because he lives there he moves. Yes, we know it’s a fantastic place for for outdoor sports. Let’s get back to the the main premise of the show, Jim. So thank you very much for for bringing that to our attention. I certainly wasn’t aware of a gym. But let’s go back to Tour de France. And I will start so so hopefully you’ve got your anecdotes ready of what your highlights of the tour now I’m going to be slightly left field and and say my highlight hasn’t has been turned France connected, but isn’t absolutely terrifying, because it’d be too obvious for me to talk about Mark Cavendish and which has been phenomenal. But I know I get shot down in flames from Jim, if I if I mentioned mark, he’s clean our champion. Anyway. My highlight would actually be at lackland Lachlan Morton. So Aussie pro, doing this thing called the Alt Tour. So he was in Andorra. Yesterday, the pros are now they’ve gone through into Android today. So he I think he’s left now. So he’s basically a few steps ahead of them riding the whole tour by himself, bike packing, as well. So totally self supported. And he’s also which is the Wii amazing thing, especially in this heat doughnut is he’s riding between all the connection points as well. So he’s got to be a few days ahead of the pros, because he’s riding the whole lot when the pros are getting in their air conditioned coaches and driving off or sometimes they go, they fly. He’s going to be riding the whole thing. So if you haven’t been following what Lachlan Morton has been doing and he has been doing an amazing I know he f racing, and Cannondale, who and Rapha who are supporting him. They’re getting huge coverage compared to the coverage they’re getting for the from the EF racing team who are racing in the Tour de France. So they’ve created this, this, this almost this event that’s getting almost as much coverage as the Tour de France itself. It’s just truly amazing. But I that’s my personal highlight, partly because it’s my son’s personal highlight because he Lachlan Morton is one of his heroes. So my son is a big, big long distance cycle tourist. And he’s been really inspired by Lachlan, and what he’s doing, and the videos are fantastic. If you haven’t watched them go and catch them up. So Donna, what’s what’s your highlight of this year’s tour? Oh, doggy. Well, that’s your answer, doggy. Where do you

Donna Tocci 57:46
hearing Jim’s dog. But also what Laughlin is doing is he is he’s writing for the world bike relief. And they have raised yesterday mentioned that for for 2557 bikes.

Carlton Reid 58:01
Yeah, another another reason to think is amazing. Yes, yes, yes.

Donna Tocci 58:05
And people are coming out, and they’re cheering him on as well. He’s getting a lot of good press. And he’s riding 12 hours a day in the heat, but so that is an absolute great highlight. Button mine and Jim, please don’t hate me and don’t sit your dog on. Is there it’s Cavendish, but it’s the moments away from the race. So I’m that the genuine emotion from him. As he as he wins the stage, that genuine joy from his team. You know, it’s not another ho hum. It’s the emotion that they all have. Because sometimes, you know, you see people that went a lot, and they’re like, yep, there’s another one. He’s not like that. I’m also that picacho realised the significance of all of this and gave Cavendish, his yellow jersey from that day, and then cap gave him a green jersey, but still respect, but there was snapped there. And then I also just loved as a dad the other day when Kevin just set the record. They were saying, Oh, your son will love this. And he said, Well, I have four children. And he said but one Yes. My one child is very into cycling, but I have children. It’s Casper, his little boy Casper. Casper. Yeah. So those are the moments that I’m enjoying is actually seeing that the Hume the human side. And then of course, Matteo vanderpol dedicating his stage went to his grandfather was really,

Carlton Reid 59:42
huh, that’s wonderful. Jim, Jim. Your highlights

Jim Moss 59:47
quite different also. I am sort of amazed at the number of different countries that are represented in the tour this year. I know That sounds a little different. But the tour used to be all European. Then it branched out a little bit and to the stances people say, and Russia and Colombia. And and if you look at the tour roster this year, there are people from every continent except Antarctica. And there are people from countries that had never been in the tour before. And and they’re not making anything out of it. I think it’s finally pretty neat that the tour really represents most of the world. And then my big thing, of course, is Laughlin. And talk about a personality. If I guarantee you if a little kid runs out on the road and sees Laughlin riding past and cheers the mom Laughlin is gonna stop and say hi, and talk to the kid. He lives here trains hear a lot. And and you’ll hear somebody say, Yeah, and I got passed by luckily on the day said, Hi, I was doing a good job. And I talked to him for a minute while he slowed down to ride with me because I was talking to him. And then at the same time, because that Duff, he’s just terrific. climbs here. I mean, yeah, he’ll he’ll ride 10 hours up and down the mountains here is a really a nice guy, besides just an unbelievable ability to just get on the bike and stay on the bike and keep hauling. But so personality wise, he’s just, there’s none better. Because Because, you know, we’ve all dealt with these exotic personalities that, you know, right in the tour. Although I saw a couple, you know, I ran into a couple pros lately that have been really nice to talk to. So anyway, um, yeah, the vast number of different countries represented individually by the tour is pretty interesting this year. And a locklin’s personal tour, I think is it’s extremely exciting and neat. None of us ever came up with the idea that there’s something going on the race that was that exciting this year.

Carlton Reid 1:02:16
And, Jim, thank you ever so much for giving us those highlights. And for being on today’s show. We have been recording for just a few seconds under an hour. So we will get there. Because we have got to go and I haven’t actually know the results of today’s stage. And I know who was roughly out ahead, but I don’t know. Professor, I don’t want anybody tell me either.

Jim Moss 1:02:42
I have no idea. But I Oh, good. Good. I’d love to get in here, Carlton. Go What? So the Boy Scouts of America at their 3800 camp just south east of Denver starting Memorial Day 2022 are going to be putting on a five race three day consumer Expo. Stay tuned, it’s going to be something big. It’s going to be something exciting. We had a gravel bike race there 129 mile gravel bike race, four and a half hours of the winter. People loved it. So we’re going to blow this up and make it a big cycling event. There are courses for downhill courses, beginner courses, mountain bike, gravel and cross courses and we’re going to have a road race or road ride and

Carlton Reid 1:03:28
you have a website

Jim Moss 1:03:30
there’s no website for that already gym or not. The decision was made a couple days ago. We don’t have a name yet let alone Okay, when we get it just put it on your calendar or something to do Memorial Day weekend.

Carlton Reid 1:03:41
Okay, sorry, what day is that? I have no idea when that is done.

Jim Moss 1:03:45
It’s the end of May May 31. Yet 2720 2930 on May 2022. thing Okay, thank you. Thank you for that.

Carlton Reid 1:04:00
Well, Jim can carry on going and give us your your website details how people can get in touch with you.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:08
Recreationlaw.com is my website or Jim at rec-law.us or just Google recreation law and you’ll find me.

Carlton Reid 1:04:23
Excellent. And Donnawrap up the show for us by telling us how people can get in touch with you, Donna.

Donna Tocci 1:04:29
This has been so much fun. I’m so glad we did this, um, Twitter and Instagram just at Donna Tocci. You can find me both places.

Carlton Reid 1:04:38
Wonderful. Just spell that t o c c i.

Donna Tocci 1:04:41
Yeah, that’s it. That’s the one.

Carlton Reid 1:04:44
Wonderful. Well, Jim and Donna. Yeah, I agree with you on it. It’s been a blast. Thank you very much for for taking the time of not watching the tour. Although you did say you watching the evening, didn’t you before the show started so I do Yeah, but you don’t want any spoilers. Definitely. So I won’t spoil it. Africa I don’t know. But thank you to you both for being on today’s show. And thanks to the listeners for for being with us to listen to you. And thank you for David for giving us that ad break. He is currently actually sheltering from the the heatwave by climbing up into the mountains near his home. So thoughts and prayers to anybody who is suffering that heat including I’m coming full circle here, including the riders in the Tour de France, and maybe they will have to change the timings for that.

Carlton Reid 1:05:34
So thank you so much and we will speak again.t

Carlton Reid 1:05:37
Thanks to Donna Tocci there, and to Jim Moss baking or being soaking wet in America, and it was Donna being rained upon and Jim baked, but thanks to you also for listening to the spokesmen cycling podcast show notes and more, as always can be found on the-spokesmen.com It’s only one more week of the Tour de France. So I’m sure you’ll be listening and watching that and hopefully we’ll get the spokesman crew together again. But meanwhile, get out there and ride

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