Hosted by David Bernstein & Carlton Reid since 2006 Posts

7th July 2024

The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast

EPISODE 357: Rob King on A-to-Zedify

SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles

HOST: Carlton Reid

GUEST: Rob King

TRANSCRIPT

Carlton Reid 0:12
Welcome to Episode 357 of the spokesmen podcast. This show was engineered on Sunday seventh of July 2024.

David Bernstein 0:28
the spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day, and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e bikes for every type of rider. Whether you’re commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That’s t e r n bicycles.com to learn more.

Carlton Reid 1:03
Hi there. I’m Carlton Reid. And on today’s show, I talk with Rob King founder in 2018, of zoom edify the Cambridge based e cargo bike delivery service is expanding. Again, it has just raised a further 4 million pounds on top of 6 million pounds it raised last year, with corporate finances clocking that the company claims a 13% improvement in logistical efficiency compared to vans. Now that might not sound like much. But it’s in a sector that has over many years sweated the details on logistics efficiency, and assumed there was nothing left to squeeze out. See if you’ve had been to investment so so tell us about that. And tell us about the spread of investment over the years.

Rob King 2:00
Yes, so great news for us. We got another 4 million pounds. That’s taken our investment now to 10 million pounds in total. And the great news is the investor that we have got have got tons of confidence in us because they’ve come back for more, which is brilliant. And they like what they’re seeing and all the impact stuff that we’re doing. So yeah, it started. I think it was 2019 or 2020. Actually green Angel ventures, we thought we could change the world with 300,000 pounds, reasonably quickly realized we probably couldn’t do it that and so our funding rounds, we’ve gotten a little bit larger each time. And yeah, now we’ve got some really good institutional investors on board, including Barclays, we’ve got an impact capital fund and Mercia who is sort of generalist VC from the Midlands.

Carlton Reid 2:45
So when you say it’s good news, so you’ve got the money to invest, but you then you’re giving away parts of your business, as well. So how does that operate?

Rob King 1 2:55
Well, sort of standard thing, people don’t give you money for nothing, I suppose. So it’s always a bit of a bit of a deal a bit of a trade off. But I think if you if you want to grow and you want to change the world, then you need some resources to do that. And this is what probably what I got a little bit wrong. Four or five years ago, when I thought I could change the world for not very much. And you know, certify is all about, you know, wanting to create the biggest impact. And if you want to have do stuff at scale, you do need to put put some cash into it. And that comes a bit of a price. But I think the most important thing is that, you know, we’re doing some good stuff in cities and change the way deliveries are done, because they’ve been done in the same way for many, many, many, many years. And something’s got to change. Tell me about

Carlton Reid 3:40
that then. So what banks do you use and talking about your fleet?

Rob King 1 3:46
Well, maybe first of all, just to sort of talk a little bit about the problem and what where where Logistics is right now. Because the way I see it, you know, if you if you think about an every or yodel a typical big logistics hub miles outside of a city and they’ll load up in the morning, their vans and trucks. And whilst they’ll zoom down the motorway. As soon as they hit that city environment, they find they get caught up in congestion and can’t find parking. And nobody really wants to idling diesel van on their street. And that’s the problem. They’re using the same vehicles that are really good on in a motorway environment, but really aren’t performing particularly well in a city environment, and particularly modern city that wants to be all nice and livable. So our model is around utilizing micro hubs. And that means we can use these really cool, fantastic electric cargo bikes and we use really quite big ones. So about half the size of a small van, typically three or four wheels, but they can actually deliver a lot more than a van over the course of the day. So rather than one big long delivery route, our vehicles will go back and forth from that localized hub, perhaps up to four times in a day so can deliver more volume over that and obviously give our customers a much more flexible experience and if Also, the bit that excites me is the impact because that system can save more than 80% carbon than even an electric Van Fleet. So it’s really impactful. And you know, if we’re gonna get to net zero, we definitely can’t do that just by remaining to electric band,

Carlton Reid 5:14
You mentioned some of your competitors there. And then others do have similar, very, very small scale, but they have similar initiatives, you know, that UPS has got, you know, various branded electric bikes, etc. So why couldn’t those companies expand at scale and knock you out of the way?

Rob King 1 5:40
That’s a great question. Well, I think first of all, it’s a really exciting, and it’s a real rubber stamp, I think to what we’re doing in that hamazon. Every, you mentioned UPS doing this little bit, I think that’s about it. I think those are the big sort of carriers that are investing a little bit in cargo bikes, but they tend to be sort of tweaking around the edges, I’d say, mostly, I guess the bit that stand us apart is that it’s 100%. We are cargo bike first 98 odd percent of our fleet or cargo bikes, we do use the old electric van. And that means we can sell to our customers 100% service that is very, very, very low emission, I don’t think you can call it zero emission anymore, but certainly zero emission a tailpipe. And that, you know, you just couldn’t do that if you’re an Amazon or an every for at least probably not for 10 years, because it’s going to take them an awful long time. And as someone pointed out, I think it was, I think it was DPD, who were raving about the number of electric vans and their fleet, and I think they’re up in the hundreds now. But the overall impact in the year was that their carbon emissions had gone up, because although they put an extra 100 Electric vans on the road, they’d actually put another 200 non electric fans, they just happen to have grown quite a lot. So I think from a customer perspective, they they they would never be able to say, hey, customer, we can give you 100% Green service, we can say our 1% of our fleet, our cargo bikes are green. But it’ll be a long time before they get to that point, I think so, you know, the sell for us. And the customer proposition I think is much more powerful to probably the main difference what the last

Carlton Reid 7:16
the last mile delivery their model. But you’ve still got to get the stuff to that last mile hub. So in that chain, there’s there’s there’s polluting van, there’s something going on that behind the scenes to get to that hub. So how do you measure what you don’t see? In that there’s a lot of stuff that you’ve got to get to the to the hub with? Yeah,

Rob King 1 7:48
that’s another great question. And you know, we’d love it if we could just do the last mile. And when we talk to customers, you know, we’d love it if they just sent their parcels directly into our house. But the reality is, they want us to take ownership from their distribution hubs, which are in the Midlands, and we have to go there at midnight or not normally a half an hour before all after, pick it up and move it through the country to sortation hubs and then get it back out to our cities. And for that, we sometimes use electric vans, sometimes this stuff is so big, sort of 26 ton truck big to one of our cities every evening, that we just can’t use electric fit for all bits of it. What we can guarantee is that last mile piece, and then we use the best alternative that is out there. And sometimes, you know, you could say, well, we’ll put three electric the answer on that route, but actually that will be a lot more impactful than having one disempowered, larger vehicle on a per parcel rate. But I think it’s worth saying, you know, we’re here to solve one problem. I think there’s not many businesses that can, you know, solve more than one problem at a time, they’re gonna do one thing, one thing really, really well. And for us, it’s that last mile. And for the rest of it, we’re just using the best alternative that is out there at the moment and one day that might be electric trucks on mass. Or it might be rail or it might be bus, we use some bus operations for one of our sites down in Plymouth. We put that on a bus on a national express bus that’s got spare capacity in it, which is fantastic that we can utilize that. But yeah, I think it’s just about yeah, there’s there’s always reasons where you can say well, we’re not going to use you because you know, some parts of that supply chain isn’t perfect. Nothing I think in life is perfect. But what we are doing is is something an awful lot better than what is out there right now. And

Carlton Reid 9:43
is an all electric trike electric bike or do you have any like traditional bicycle careers, you know, on a Fixie going around with you know arm tattoos and and you know, rings through noses that kind of stuff. So So what are you operating?

Rob King 1 10:01
I get all sorts of visions in my head, because I used to do a bit of that in my time, but I don’t remember the tattoos particularly. So no, we don’t is the is the summary of that, when, when we first started doing stuff, we used to do anything we could possibly get our hands on on a bike. But the reality was, we had to focus on one thing, and the one area that is still growing massively, I think it’s a 10 billion pound business in the UK, there are in the average household orders, 200 items online, that is the bit that’s really growing. And that’s the bit that we can really make the biggest impact, the stuff that moves around by sort of cycle careers has been a bit of a dying trade, unfortunately, there’s just not very much going around like that.

Carlton Reid 10:42
So that was like pre emails will certainly print, you know, fax era where we, you know, art departments were sending, you know, small things by bicycle that’s that was that was the state of the stripe
proofs. And now,

Carlton Reid 10:57
you’ve got, you’ve got big things, and you can no longer do that with a courier with just a satchel on

Rob King 1 11:05
was not just the fact that they’re big things, we often do very, very small things, but it’s about competing in the marketplace, and doing things as efficiently as possible. So our, our calculators will typically go out with 50 100, maybe even more parcels in one of their bikes, and do a delivery round like that. And the marketplace is typically Well, you know, when you order something online, it’s, you rarely pay more than about three pounds for delivery. And that’s the expectation in the marketplace to get it from, you know, whatever that distribution here is right to your door. And there’s an awful lot to, you know, a lot of systems to go through. So you have to have a very, very, very efficient system for doing that. The other end of the scale that this sort of cycle through traditional cycle is a bit like the queue commerce or the delivery style stuff where it is all point to point you’ve got one rider delivering something from point A to point B, and they do the whole journey rather than the sort of multi drop stuff that we do, where we are delivering to kind of every street every other street kind of thing. So

Carlton Reid 12:08
the delivery model, I’m going to add the there’s a name Ernest Austin that they’ve got, they’ve got like a name for their, their, their algorithm that the way that they route riders around which which is kind of their magic sauce is what they say is, you know, this, this, what differentiates them, they can get riders very efficiently to where they want to deliver food or whatever. So are you operating something similar? You’ve got some secret sauce software, which is routing riders in the most efficient way possible and lacing through the city in certain ways? Or is there any autonomy?

Rob King 1 12:52
That’s a really good question. So yes, we have software that does, routes, that utilizes sits on top of a Google Maps route. And at the moment, you can pick a cycle route, or you can pick a van route. And unfortunately, there’s nothing in between that fits one of our vehicles, which are, you know, in between those two. And most of the time, we don’t want to be on a van route, because we’ll end up on a dual carriageway or something horrible, but often the cycle routes, get caught up with some guessing gates that we can’t get through or some inappropriate routes. So we are building some really cool machine learning really on top of all of that, whereby we got tons of amazing local knowledge in our riders who go and do these routes every day. And they look at the Google route and go, oh, I want to do that there’s a great little cut through their van route, which will make the use of a machine learning piece, we’ll take that route and compare it with the Google route. And if it’s quicker, better cleaner, learn that so that when the new writer goes out, they don’t have to have all that amazing local knowledge. And that, you know, starts building a whole load of data that drives efficiency. So it’s a bit like Waze than

Carlton Reid 14:05
in that. Exactly, exactly. And

Rob King 14:10
whoever, and it’s in real time as well. So yeah.

Carlton Reid 14:13
So just to explain that, I mean, a human goes through in a in ways as turned in a car, the algorithm picks that up, and it notices that lots of lots of motorists have gone through that route must be a good route. So then recommend it to other people. And then if there’s a blockage, it can like on recommend that route. So you’re you’re talking about something relatively similar, where there’s local knowledge, or there’s knowledge from a human, but then that’s picked up by an algorithm.

Rob King 1 14:39
Exactly, exactly. And then and then you can build on that model and put more and more complexity into it by feeding it data for example, from train journey times, you know, to make sure you don’t get stuck, a level crossing that kind of thing or whether you know, anything that will impact or affect that journey. Or if one of our riders gets to a A road, there’s a blockage there, they can they can, you know, put a put a, put a notification out and that will reroute all the other riders to make sure they don’t get caught up in traffic. So that’s got amazing impact in terms of efficiency, but it’s also got really good impact in terms of our customers and make sure we hit those time delivery slots that you you want. So

Carlton Reid 15:23
tell me about your expansion in terms of numbers of people. You’ve got now numbers of people you want in in, say, two years? And then also tell me who you’re looking for. What how do you when you’re interviewing riders, what are you asking? What what are their skill sets?

Rob King 1 15:45
Yeah, so we’ve got around 220 odd people in the team at the moment, across nine different cities. This year, we will be tripling in size, that’s number of parcels rather than people will probably double in in pupil size. And two years time, we’d hoped to be in around 20 or 30 UK cities and really started to ramp up a lot. But this isn’t unfortunately, a nice SAS business it is real operations are real people on the ground, and things don’t move normally quite as quickly. But they you know, we are growing and we’ll grow you know, very, very fast. In terms of the riders and who we look for. Mostly, it’s just around attitude, you don’t have to be super fit. These are all electric assisted vehicles, they’re set to pretty much output around 70 watts. So typically what you’ve managed to do over an eight hour day, so you get some fitness and a lot of the time you’re not on the bike, you’re often off the bike and delivering parcels and walking around as well. So it certainly you need to be fit in terms of normal fit, but you don’t need to be I’m a I’m an Ironman triathlete, this is part of my workout kind of thing. So I would say, You know what we’re talking about before the kind of cycle career a bit of it where you might have done 7080 Odd miles in a day and perhaps only done 10 deliveries, you know, each delivery being a really long journey, these are much more every other street every 100 yards, you’re stopping and making a delivery. So a certain level of fitness, but it’s kind of walking and gentle riding, rather than sort of fast paced zooming across town and whipping through the Trintech tech kind of style. And broadly attitudes. So we’ve got some really, really great riders who perhaps come to work with us for two or three days a week or afternoons, the rest of time perhaps are a freelance graphic designer or teacher. And this is part of their kind of wholesome, that’s get out and about meet people be out in the fresh air and get a bit of a health kick.

Carlton Reid 17:47
You don’t have to be like a full time employee you can not not the delivery model, but actually, is it similar? How, how are you taking those those part time people on?

Rob King 1 17:59
Yeah, so as I said before, like typically our rounds will won’t just be one big long round in a day. And they’ll typically be two, three or four rounds. So there might be three or four hours long. So they can work into different part time shifts quite nicely. And we worked seven days a week, typically from 7am to 9pm. So quite a broad range in time. So people can flex around what they want to do. We like regularity. It’s not like delivery where you can just pick up the app and you know, do it for a few evenings a week and then just stop for a few months and come back to it. It’s not that level of flexibility. But there is a community to it and a routine to it. And we started finishing at the at our on our micro hub. So there is a really good camaraderie around that.

Carlton Reid 18:49
At that point, I’ll stop Rob there, and we’ll go across to somebody new for a quick commercial break.

AI Charles 2 19:00
Hey, thanks, Carlton. I’m Charles. David. will be back next episode. Do you dread the ridiculously long pickup line after school? Are you struggling to keep your kids entertained on car trips? Driving can make you feel like you and your family are stuck in a one ton metal capsule — boring, stressful, adding to your eco guilt. The good folks at Tern want you to know there’s a better way to get around with your kids. It’s by bike and it’s easier than you think. The Tern Quick Haul Long is a smooth riding compact cargo bike that’s third party tested to safely haul up to 190 kilograms. Paired with Bosch’s powerful yet simple to operate eBIKE SYSTEM. It will help you carry two kids plus all their stuff, so transporting them around becomes easier than ever. You get to skip the school pickup line while your kids have fun engaging with the world around them. It’s a win win for everyone, as well as the environment, visit ternbicycles.com to learn more. Back to you, Carlton.

Carlton Reid 20:02
Thanks, Charles. And yes, David will be back. I hope in the next episode, he’s actually in all above the Arctic Circle, would you believe? Which is why we haven’t got him for this episode anyway, we are back with Rob King of Zedify. Now, obviously, you’re going with the green angle, and the you know, the clean angle. But also an mme, this is where the investments come from. But you can’t you can you can tell me that if this is true, it’s just pure efficiency. It is just daft to be taking a large four wheel vehicle a van through what are often congested city streets. And it’s just, it’s just, it’s just pure logistic intelligence to use a smaller vehicle. So yes, you’ve got the green element, but the end of the day, it’s just your data efficient? How do you how do you? How do you square those two things.

Rob King 1 20:59
So on the you know, we are we sell and we get in fall where companies on that green angle, but actually 99% of people, or businesses certainly wouldn’t choose you because you’re green, it’s something that they might wave around as a ticket and tell everyone. But actually, they will choose you because of your price and your service. So those two have got to be absolutely awesome. And for us to be price parity with the competition, it’s an extremely competitive market, then it has to be around efficiency. And we’re just a very different model to what’s out there at the moment. And although, you know, we have proven that we are at least 30% more efficient getting around the cities, with cargo bikes, sometimes it’s more, but at least that there are other challenges in that we have to have those microbes situated in the middle of cities are typically quite expensive cargo bikes typically have to be stored inside. Contrary to popular belief, there’s actually probably more costs in maintaining them than electric van, it’s certainly one of the unknowns. cargo bikes are very new industry, vans have been around for a very, very, very long time and have a whole load of infrastructure and ecosystem around it from insurance to finance to servicing, you know, you put it in for service once a year, you know, exactly the depreciation it’s gonna go through. And there is a model around hiring people that have a driving license for cargo boxes is pretty new and pretty different that whole ecosystem. So there are just different costs in the model. And what we’re proving out is, overall, you can make that work as an efficient system. And that’s what’s I guess, exciting our investors, not only that impact side of it, but actually it’s, it makes sense, it’s a good business, and is the future of how deliveries and cities will and should happen. And

Carlton Reid 22:47
let’s go back to that 13%. Because the story that I did on you previously, with Forbes, I married that to an earlier story, which was a Dutch report, which said, you know, cargo bike deliveries are X percent better, more efficient in cities, and it was Amsterdam, specifically on this particular study than than vans. So you’ve got something similar, you’ve got a 13% figure. So where does that 13% figure come from? We

Rob King 1 23:17
just did some comparison with a van courier company. And, yeah, we just shared some data with them in terms of what a typical van crew could do. And then what we were doing on the ground, with the same number of parcels against the same location. So you know, essentially a direct comparison for that last mile. But what it doesn’t show, as we’re talking about before, is then all of those other costs and how that system works, and fits in. And to get to the sort of scales where you get some really awesome economies of scale, particularly in that kind of trunking piece. You know, we are competing with the likes of every deputy and yodel who are doing things in millions a day, and we’re doing things in, you know, 1000s of days. So that’s the challenge. And that’s where, you know, the the investment, I guess, is, is required to have confidence to go forward and say, Yeah, this is this is the future of it, as you said, it makes complete sense, on all sorts of different levels.

Carlton Reid 24:15
Because that, forgive me, but 13% more efficient, to I don’t know, maybe a logistics person that’s like, oh, that’s, that’s the Holy Grail. That’s amazing. You know, we work on, you know, fractions of 1% efficiency. But to me personally, as a layperson, that doesn’t seem that great, you’d think, oh, electric bikes, you know, through going through it, and it’s been much more efficient than vans. So tell me why I’m wrong. Why, why is 13% really good?

Rob King 1 24:43
Yeah, I mean, it’s a game of marginal gains. But this is comparing, like a super optimized model, or existing super optimized model with those number of parcels. So, really, the differences you know, you’re not you’re not sure versing milk, you know, all the way across the city like you might do it, you say on a on a career bike on a fixed kit bike with your tattoo, and trying to cover seven miles for one job, which you can do in you know, maybe that’s 5060 80% more efficient than, than a car or a van. Whereas this is in a very, very concentrated area, perhaps you’re delivering 50 to 100 parcels in a square kilometer. So really, the efficiency gains a little bit about getting there and that stem mileage, but once you’re there, which is really the study we did once you were there not so taking out some of that stem mileage stuff. You know, how many parcels you can deliver over the course of that day. And really, the advantages, the main advantage is really is about parking and be able to stop and get out your vehicle really quickly and where that’s situated. And then a little bit in terms of utilizing some of the cycle infrastructure and cut throughs depending on where you are. And that can change quite a lot, depending on the city and some of the filter permeability stuff that’s, that’s coming up. And I guess that’s where we see the future is this is only going in one direction, if cities want to make their places nicer for people to live, and be then those sorts of cut throughs are going to be, you know, changed, and there’s gonna be more costly that it’s gonna be harder and harder to get round in vehicles that aren’t as safe and noisier and aren’t as positive for for the city environment.

Carlton Reid 26:24
Rob, get us you say it’s only going one direction. And I kind of agree, you know, if you look at it, this from a purely macro point of view over a great deal of time, but at a micro level, and it’s it’s kind of been brought into the culture wars sphere, with the current political campaign. In fact, in that it’s not going that way. There’s been a lot of kickback against for instance, like low low traffic neighborhoods, and so low traffic neighborhoods are good for you. Bad for vans. So why do you say it’s going in one direction? And do you see that culture war thing, in effect, stopping because we’re recording this today, the general election in the UK, and it’ll flip, you know, with the Ed Miliband promise of everything goes green and new investment, etc, etc. That culture war switch is turned off tomorrow?

Rob King 1 27:26
Yeah, I think this is actually sadly, I think, a failure of our politicians and leaders to explain this well enough because no one wants to kill off their electorate, and everyone’s cleaner streets that are safer and time and again, when these things have been put in place. And there’s been a relatively small minority that are very vocal against whatever it is. And when they turned around at the end of it and said, Oh, do you want us to take it back to what it was? Most of the time? People were like, no, no, no, we’re actually quite happy about this. Thank you very much. So I think I think there’s an inevitability to this. And people don’t like change, people don’t like having choices taken away from them, is the reality. I think, I mean, I’m not a, I’m not a traffic planner. But I kind of feel like that will be the long term trend once, once you get through some of the policies of stuff and want some of that communication is is better, because I think that has been very poor. And we, we seem to talk a lot about all these things that we’ve been deprived of, and I can’t drive my car, and we talk less about the real benefits. And, and why this is good. And have that vision for what the endpoint is. And think about all the opposite of rather than all those obstacles in the way of like, Oh, but I can’t do what I used to do yesterday. So it does, I think need a bit of imagination, better communication. But it’s definitely only going in one direction, because it’s the future our cities. And this has been a general move, albeit slowly, I think in that direction. So

Carlton Reid 28:54
tell me where you start because you start off in Cambridge. So Cambridge is a kind of a different city. And it’s like it’s it’s medieval, it’s narrow streets. And yet you’ve got other cities, I can’t name them, where it’s not like that. And you know, they maybe they were bombed in Second World War, and they were flattened and completely redesigned, basically in effect for for motor vehicles. So how did you take a Cambridge model and and put it into a city that isn’t anything like Cambridge?

Rob King 1 29:32
Yes, sir. That’s a really good question. And honestly, I think we have been a little bit challenged in some of the cities we’ve worked in because our model is based on three to four mile radius from one of our logistics hubs as a perfect stem mileage and when you go into a big city like a London, you obviously can’t service the whole of London with one habit. It requires many multiples of hubs and then you’ve got an extra challenge of trying to provide a service that covers the whole of London at seamless But with multiple hubs and all the nuances around moving stuff between hubs. So I think that’s been a big challenge for us. And most of our competitors, typically electric bands, starting in some of the largest cities like London, they go almost like London, and then there’s not very much like London, whereas, you know, we got to work here in Cambridge, actually, there’s quite a lot of cities like Cambridge, you’re in Brighton and, you know, old school streets that are designed around the horse and cart. They’re actually pretty hard to get around in vans. But But that said, it’s also a lot of the modern cities and Manchester is a really good example where, you know, the cycle infrastructure that is going in is really, really helpful and makes it easier to get around that some of the filter permeability, stuff that’s been put in has been really excellent for us. I think it could be better. But

Carlton Reid 30:49
yeah, it’s

Rob King 1 30:50
been challenging, but I think you know, all cities will certainly have areas and locations that are still much much easier to get around on on a cargo bike and a small vehicle, even if they have been designed around a car more. And that’s just a factor of congestion as much as anything.

Carlton Reid 31:06
I was in Walthamstow recently. So obviously London is a is a city of multiple villages is the standard way of describing you know, that kind of that hub and spoke model for for London as a whole. But as in Walthamstow. And I’ve gone back there, you know, every few years. But when I went back this time, there was just an explosion, in maybe some of them was edify, an explosion of electric cargo bikes, and they were coming past. You know, when I stopped when I was taking photographs, you know, they came past every minute. It was it was, you know, that many cargo bikes. So is the Walthamstow model, something that you’re plugging into? And and that’s where you really shine?

Rob King 1 32:01
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a good example where politicians have stuck their neck out, and all thought they weren’t going to get reelected once they put all this infrastructure in and really helped to create a completely different environment for people to walk and cycle more easily. And it’s been really transformational. And I think most people who live in that area wouldn’t want to go back I’m sure there’s still pretty strong local, but but minority loud voices against it. But absolutely, because it makes it much easier to get on. On cargo bikes, it really supports what we do. And actually, we had quite a good example from one of our clients in London where they, we did a trial with them. And we knew that we were faster and more efficient on the last mile. But with all the reloading and all the extra complications, it just didn’t quite work out for them, though, like it’s just a little bit more expensive and can still get around pretty easily. And overall, it just makes a bit more sense. And then they made a few of the streets, proper zero emission, and they stuck in and made it harder for you just to go through all sorts of cut throughs. And suddenly their van journeys that were half an hour was suddenly becoming at 90 minutes. And suddenly the economics just changed overnight. And they came back and was like actually, no, it does work. Thanks very much. So I think my, my, my call, I suppose to local authorities is set the parameters of how and that vision of how you want that local area to look and then allow businesses to do what they do best, which is find innovative ways to still do all the things that you needed to do, whether it was getting to school easily or delivering parcels, they will come up with solutions that fit within that framework.

Carlton Reid 33:41
And let’s go back to your press release. So this is this is your PR person sent this to me piqued my interest. Let’s Let’s talk. So can I do an audio version of that press release? So tell us that well, just saying read out the press release. But what was that press release about so people can understand exactly who you’ve got investment from and what you can be doing with it?

Rob King 1 34:11
Yeah, so it was just sharing the news, I suppose that our investors, our current investors, have confidence in us and want us to grow and keep doing the good stuff that we’re doing as well as grow into more cities. So we got 4 million pounds from Barclays impact capital from Mercia from Green Angel ventures, group of Angel ventures, as well as support from the British business bank. And that will allow us to continue the good work that we’re currently doing and expand our operations as well as open a new hub in the Midlands. We’ve left a little bit of a just because it’ll almost certainly be brilliant, but it might, it might be not. We just forget the data at the moment and Lappish like we’re talking about just now about this see the cities and the dynamics of it and how easy it is to get around on a cargo bike and where our customers are. So we’re just analyzing all of that data. But we’ll be there will be there by the autumn of this year and in a few months time,

Carlton Reid 35:12
Thnaks to Rob King there and thanks to you for listening to Episode 357 of the spokesman podcast brought to you in association with Tern bicycles. Shownotes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com The next episode will be later this month, meanwhile, get out there and ride …

2nd June 2024

The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast

EPISODE 355: City Thread Awards Four U.S. Cities With Grants

SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles

HOST: Carlton Reid

GUESTS: Sara Studdard and Kyle Wagenschutz of City Thread.

TRANSCRIPT

To come

16th May 2024

The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast

EPISODE 353: Bike Town is 10 — Inspiring Speeches From 10 Years of Enjoy Waltham Forest Reception

SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles

HOST: Carlton Reid

GUESTS: Cllr Grace Williams, Leader of Waltham Forest Council and Labour Councillor for William Morris; Cllr Clyde Loakes, Deputy Leader of the Council; Will Norman, London’s cycling and walking commissioner. Speeches recorded at the evening reception for Celebrating 10 Years of Enjoy Waltham Forest event, William Morris Gallery, Walthamstow, 14th May 2024.

TRANSCRIPT

Carlton Reid 0:12
Welcome to Episode 353 of the spokesmen podcast. This show was engineered on Thursday 16th of May 2024.

David Bernstein 0:28
The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you’re commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That’s t e r n bicycles.com to learn more.

Carlton Reid 1:03
There are now more people walking and cycling in Waltham Forest, and earlier this week I visited this now most vibrant of London boroughs to join events celebratating 10 years since the start of the Enjoy Waltham Forest programme. I’m Carlton Reid and I was in Walthamstow in 2015 a year after the first fruits of the so-called Mini Holland programme were beginning to ripen and yet where 100 or so protestors gathered to shout at the Labour councillor leading the borough’s transformation. They carried a coffin — in safety, beause of no cars — along Orford Road and warned that Clyde Loakes and his fellow Labour councillors were being held responsoible for the predicted death of Walthamstow. Free access for cars, they said, was necessary for economic vitality and they didn’t want what teir posters called a Berlin Wall. Orford road is now a poster child for how to effect change for the better. It’s buzzing with business, with peaople ambling around and enjoying the pavement cafes. This previously traffic-clogged street is a honeypot destnation for VIPs and traffic planners from around the UK and the world, visiting to see how it is possible to make neighborhoods less car dependent and more people friendly. On today’s show I’ve got three inspiring speeches delivered at an evening reception held in Walthamstow’s William Morris Gallery on Tuesday 14th May 2024. The speeches are from Cllr Grace Williams, Leader of Waltham Forest Council , Deputy Leader Cllr Clyde Loakes and Will Norman, London’s cycling and walking commissioner. On the next two episodes, I’ll share audio recorded at the Landor Links event staged after the evening reception, an event for town planners and other professionals seeking guidance on best practice for cycling and walking schemes. But first, here’s Grace Williams at the evening reception,

Grace Williams 3:37
I think sounds in his night. It is a kind of reunion because we have the whole team. And we of course are climbing. We’ve got Martin, who’s hiding on a balcony. We’ve got Lindsey, we’ve got untold officers who worked on this scheme and given hours of their life. And I know it’s not because community groups here we’ve got plenty out to them. We’ve got families and everyone I know in this room has been putting the effort into what Min-Holland has been over the last 10 years. A massive amounts that we have all learned together actually scanning as it is required to scale which require that’s political wiil. And that sense of keeping on going and doing the right thing, I think is really important. And I should really add that, on top of that because we have built relationships regionally, nationally, internationally and it’s brilliant to have Will Norman here. And it’s really also a testament to the work that’s been done to involve other in Waltham Forest which I am sure Clyde will be talking about, I have been a councillor for ten years so Mini-Holland has been my reality as a councillor, and one of my earliest memories of being councillor was Clyde spoke to me and say, Yeah, the thing he wants you to talk about

MiniHolland tonight. I remember that it was a protest outside that’s become an occupational hazard now, but it was quite nerve wracking as a new councillor going in and doing first big speech on mini-Holland. I do remember saying something along the line of so cyclists and motorist should just go to the pub sit down and have a nice chat about.

No, I did seize up. So now we’ll be thinking about, you know, the culture wars that we had. You know, the fact that we have several elections since then, it really really is a different climate when it comes to talk to you about what actually travelling can do and what Mini-Holland means. I know that Clyde will tell you a bit more about his reflections on that journey. So I do want to thank the whole team. But before I end, I want to pay tribute fine, because we just would not all be standing here celebrating 10 years of mini Holland as if it wasn’t view

everyone in this room, probably you know quite a lot from you about how you stuck with the product. And when you go in decide, I know it was a very personal effect it has cost you and the impact on your on your life has basically become doing Mini-Holland, I don’t know if it’s somewhere.

But it has the effort who said the political will stand up. And that sheer bloody mindedness. More in the sense of knowing that has to do the right thing. He didn’t have to keep moving forward. Because if you’re not moving forward on this agenda, you’re moving backwards. And we have seen others move backwards in fence. So I really want to from bottom of my heart thank you Clyde for doing this. You’ve transformed all of our lives, you’ve made children’s lives better. You’ve made our borough what it is today

and I want to say a personal thank you to what you taught me.y

I hand over to Clyde.

Clyde Loakes 7:25
Today evening, what an honour it is to be in a room of champions, pioneers. congratulate yourselves, everyone. You’re all amazing language people. And we wouldn’t normally be in this evening. If it wasn’t for all of you here this evening. You are the stars. were woken up not just in the forest, but across London over the past 10 years. So I’m so so grateful. Whether you are officers, you know, I will single out a couple of people, you know, Vala, Keith, over, we’re going to need to do that presentation.

Wow. Who knew where we were be 10 years on the answers coming back with a 30 odd million quid. Thank you so much. All the officers who then assembled Chris Proctor, Chris Harrison, Jon little, you know, all that cast,

and then in a wonderful job.

Wow. Wow. And it started off just as a highway project, a cycling project.

And yet, we’ve looked at the difference we’ve made now, you public health terms, and offensive terms and congestion terms. We look at the difference we’re making to the clients. You know, we knew

10 years ago, that this would be one of the fundamental

projects in a local authority that was acting on the climate emergency, look at how building rain gardens and total resilience into those. All coming from this nugget of an idea the idea that we could make it is that we could actually help support people to walk and cycle more often have a tremendous achievement, and she would take it upon us. And everywhere I go and I speak about all we’ve done I always say, you know, it was that politicians, Chris Robbins that stood by me through some pretty

challenging times. He was no keen cyclist Like

he knew this was the right thing to do for the right reasons. Those officers with this technical skill

who was so so bored with just painting double yellow lines that we are aligned and responding to the lowest common denominator consultation return that says, We don’t want any

change. You know, we

unleash their talents now ideas so that we can deliver something so dramatically different things that they went to college and learn their skills that they wanted to do. We were able to do that here. The community activists just talking to Paul we’re just now living

that way now. Right. You know,

Susan, you know, never gave up on your time. You never know Lee when he sat down assignment. Look for when you’re worthy now you are shaping and influencing

London and more because of what you did here and never

gave up. And you’ve made it. Look at the behaviour change it received Jane, Emma. Look at what we’re seeing, Joy Riders, Cycle sisters, breaking down boundaries.

All the cargo bikes!

you seen that on most schools, you know school districts,

normal families going to school. That’s why sharing some way because we’ve created the infrastructure, we created the environment and feel comfortable and safe, transport and cherish them loved ones to school and back again. By bike, by cargo bike.Thank you for that you didn’t absolutely amazing. But it wasn’t always easy. It was It wasn’t the coffin.

We mentioned Dutch ambassador on the second day.

He literally chased out.

We mentioned those things we come along mentioned the judicial review, Vala you remember the emails every day. We’re gonna miss out

on some Yeah, nailbiting stuff because he told us of why we wouldn’t

not be here today. What else? Hey, man. Yeah, the protests. Yeah. And, you know, some pretty hairy, you know, interviews with the police and my answers and stuff that was coming my way. But times, but I’ve always said I was doing the right things for the workplaces always knew, I have that physical support, either community support around the doubles. And that’s what made me continue to do the things that we wanted to do. And that’s why it’s interesting members in many organisations that we just had, I counted six of the candidates have openly declared that they were against low traffic neighbourhoods, in their little pieces in that one photo that we will look at. Where are they now? Where are they now? They are nowhere. And you know, once I have the microphone, and you know, Will’s in the room, newly appointed, fortunately, cycling commissioner, and again well done Will, you know, please take it back to to your boss, Sadiq Khan’s leadership on him less, you know, what to think is some this someone’s readership on

those louder voices that said it was wrong, and you wouldn’t lose.

But actually, vast majority people don’t

clean vocalise their views on these things.

But they like it. Or even nobody makes sense. And they know, politicians are doing these things for the voice reasons, not just for the hearing now, not just for the election, and the next ballot box opportunity, but for the future and future generations that please talk back out thanks to Steve for his leadership that he’s provided us. And we will continue to stand here and will advise supporting those quick, safe transport policies that had brought us all together this evening to sell by 10 years on, we will continue to do all of that will be carrying out those kind of policies that really really do make a difference. So please put your hands together, and celebrate you’re all amazing. Thank you I

Carlton Reid 15:02
We will leave Clyde Loakes in Walthamstow there and head across to the States to get our ad break from David.

David Bernstein 15:09
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Carlton Reid 16:27
Thanks, David. And we are back in Walthamstow at the evening reception celebrating 10 years of enjoying Waltham Forest. Here’s the final speech of the night from London cycling and walking Commissioner Will Norman

Will Norman 16:41
Absolutely phenomenal to be here today. I cycled through the borough on the way and it is it’s a groundbreaking transformation. I knew this but this morning I was sitting around the breakfast table at home and I thought normal domestic things should work well you can relate to the background this or where you go and move the ball forward. And my daughter who’s 13 Who is normally monosyllabic takes no interest in my work whatsoever, eating a bowl of cereal, then looks up, Waltham Forest? Good bike lanes

Under your leadership for the change that needs to happen in cities around the world, the scariest thing that happened to me in the last two weeks was around the time of the election when text messages that are coming in from around the world to you felt really busy. And they were coming in from Australia from USA from India, from somebody someone in Egypt. If he loses, then I’m gonna zero commitments, that the stuff that we’re doing our cities, the tours that we had an open for the changes that we’re doing fall under threat. It goes back to the point that changes have happened in this borough are being felt integrated internationally and it’s been ascend the leadership that need is required to tackle the climate crisis to tackle what is tmos existential threat. So the human species, everybody has a role to play in that. And if you see the kid cycling through the filters at the moment playing football against the bridge,, they’re on their way to school, that is the change that needs to happen in every city and every community in every town in every country around the world. And you guys have been the focal point of that. It’s amazing. I haven’t said anything it was actually my speech. Last Sunday man this thing you guys be the changes that have happened that obvious you actually listed this is I’m standing in a way when the most important things here just have a look of everything that’s happened in this borough over the last 10 years game changing transformation. This resulted in more cycling it’s resulted in more walking through resulted in fewer collisions saving lives, is resulting in greater footfall in the shops, were to spend in the shop greater economic regeneration, clean air, closer communities, tackling social social isolation, you name it, it is it is changing. And as I said it’s synonymous for how cities are going to get up it should be and how they’re changing. And I use those two there’s there’s a before and after photo offer great band summed up the change that basically the strategic change that’s happening in London, the strategic change that’s happening in Paris, it is blasting around the world as this is the change that needs to happen. We no longer need to design our cities for cars. We need to design them for people a new modes of encapsulated that you digitalize you show what’s possible. And inspiration goes way beyond lessness. The impact you’ve had on neighbouring powers is astonishing by working with teams across borders and raising the bar. As I said, it’s bringing this change lives in the country. It raised the bar has raised the bar of ambition around the country. You got Mini-Holland’s written into national policy. Now we can argue where that national policy is just fine for motorists. Yeah, I’m not so sure that’s going to last but it’s absolutely amazing and you get We have to follow Clyde on social media to see this endless procession of dignitaries, officers, MPs and councillors who come around in his characteristic shirts with all his energy and passion showing every filter every story about the coffin and the Dutch ambassador. But it works. And every time people go away inspired, and every one of those inspiration just changing something in a city retirement city around around the world. It’s not easy, it’s quite said creating meaningful change. Yeah, the amount of abuse the amount of hate the amount of protests that are weird conspiracy theories. And what I experienced over the last seven years is similar to Clyde. I think there were four ingredients which drive change with any within any city. And Waltham Forest has those in spades. The first is has been mentioned is political leadership, that political leadership coming from Grace, but I’m also Clyde again, I want to play particularly for credit, give particular credit to Clyde and just be cheering and he has led the way. It has been a hard journey you you’ve taken the strength you have stood strong, you’ve showed leaders including myself around the city around the world book resilience means more than doing the right thing. It’s the right thing to do and the impact that it has and how that plays into election. election victories in the most people bump this, the enthusiasm, the pride you have is absolutely infectious. And I don’t think that in other changes in this bar wouldn’t have happened to quite the same scale, but certainly not the way that it’s spread around the world. The second ingredients, which have been what we’ve heard has been really good at is collecting data and telling us stories of success. Without that data, you can’t push back the ages, you can’t push back without it, you can’t celebrate the changes that are happening. I think that’s been really inspiring. The third ingredient is that technical expertise, the brilliant officers that have worked on this across the board over the years, successive generations. Again, I want to give tribute to Bala we were talking about the first time we met in the basement of the House of Commons or something seven years ago, and the changes have happened since then. But again, those opposite has happened just the impact is obviously haven’t just stopped at the border to this borough. It is again flowed into cities, other boroughs, other cities and around the world. But finally, and I think living is often overlooked in terms of those magic ingredients that drive change are campaigning communities, the role of community members play, it actually broken this providing all of us who need the backbone of the local information, the reassurance, every consultation that you fill in every petition that you sign, every event you go to with a positive piece, every suggestion you make a change in an improvement in that it matters. It is such a vital ingredient. And the change is often overlooked. You need the political leadership, you need the data, you need the technical expertise and you need the strong communities. Waltham Forest has all of those and showed the world how to do it. So I think everybody should be massively grateful that everyone would welcome everyone in this room on behalf of Sadiq who I think is seeing the Pope that this I’m not saying I’m not going into what’s a better event, it’s a bit of a mystery. He knows what a difference you guys made. He knows how hard it’s been. He’s massively grateful you kind of pioneering delivering his transport strategy. Thank you. There is an awful lot more to do. So let’s keep going.

Carlton Reid 23:34
Thanks for listening to episode 353 of the Spokesmen podcast, brought to you in association with Tern Bicycles. Show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com. The next episode — featuring speakers at Landor Links’ Celebrating 10 Years of Enjoy Waltham Forest two-day conference — will be out soon with another hot on its heels but meanwhile get out there and ride …

15th April 2024

The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast

EPISODE 351: Andy McGrath — God is Dead

SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles

HOST: Carlton Reid

GUEST: Andy McGrath

TRANSCRIPT

Carlton Reid 0:12
Welcome to Episode 351 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Monday, April 15 2024.

David Bernstein 0:28
The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you’re commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That’s t e r n bicycles.com to learn more.

Carlton Reid 1:04
I’m Carlton Reid. And today’s show is the first of two episodes with bike book authors. Later this week, I’ll share the chat I had with potholes and pavement author Laura Laker a book so fresh, it’s not even out yet. But today, I talk with William Hill award winning author Andy McGrath about his 2022 book, God is dead biography of Frank Vandenbrouke the wunderkind who died a mysterious death in a grungy African hotel room.

Liège–Bastogne–Liège has been staged since 1892, the oldest of cycling’s five monument races, and this year’s race will be staged at the end of the month, Sunday the 21st to be exact. Now, Andy, it’s 25 years since a certain famous victory of that particular race. So tell us about that.

Andy McGrath 2:10
This was the edition of Liège–Bastogne–Liège where the great Belgian cycling hope Frank Vandenbrouke seemed to be fulfilling his immense potential. And he did it in his own unique way. He told anyone that would listen in the days for the race, you know, teammates, DS’s, rivals and other races and media, where he was going to attack to win the race to make it stick, a bit like Muhammad Ali used to do before his heavyweight fight. And he’d went out for a 20 minute puto, a few days before the age best on the age. And it’s covered his teammate saw him come back to the hotel, you know, barely a blink of an eye later. And he told him, that’s all all I need, I feel good. I’m going to win lift some of the age. And he was in a state of grace that day, he attacked on by ODU, which sounds different course back then. It finished in an industrial suburb over the age. And the Cordilla. Redo was about oh, at 90k from the finish. And he, he he wrote up in the big room, he tacked up in the big green, which is I could barely walk up it when I was researching the book, which is a astonishing and slightly sinister thing when you really get into that era of cycling. And he was already clearly the best, you know, he he accelerated pass the defending champion makayley Bartley like it was nothing and then he just let the rest catch him up, basically. And he did attack, you know, if we’re going to split hairs slightly later than he said he would you know, or maybe earlier actually, I think it was early. And he said he would you know, a few 100 metres earlier. Because

Carlton Reid 3:55
Because that’s in your book, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s a very detailed book and you you’re knocking on doors, and you give the exact door that he actually did attack on and not the one that you said he’s going to attack on?

Andy McGrath 4:06
Yeah, the thing is, I actually knocked on the door of the house number he said he would attack which was 256. You know, hoping for some kind of journalistic intrigue and it was a little bit disappointing that I think people that answered the door were very nice, but it was someone looking after their elderly parent and they said they didn’t like cycling, they didn’t know about it. So so so I was like yeah, that’s there’s that avenue gone in the book. But no abandoned Brook road away from the last remaining rival Michael Burgard on the court to send Nicola outside the edge and road to victory just like he said he would and you know, a country that was already in thrall to him was an even more rapturous, you know, Eddie Merckx was extremely impressed. You know, the Eddie marks the greatest and that was really, I think it was 24 Back then van of work, and it wasn’t so normal for providers to break through in their early 20s, which is what he had done. He was the exception. And it seemed like that, you know, the cycling world was gonna fall to him. You know. During the book research, I kind of ascertained that he could probably have won almost anything apart from a grantor, you know, he was a strong climber, but didn’t have the consistency or the or the mentality to do it over three weeks, but everything else was, was fair game. But that was a very brief high point, you know, that was that was paradise. And he was soon into purgatory. And then how, you know, within a year, which kind of summed up his his life and his career trajectory.

Carlton Reid 5:41
And, and spoiler alert, the kind of the title of your book tells us that Frank is no longer with us. But you did refer a few moments ago, almost to the fact that this is an EPO era. So he’s going up in the big ring, that’s kind of Superman stuff that, you know, Nietzsche, God is dead stuff. So clearly he was he was deeping, he kind of admitted he was doping. This is the EPO era. But then what everybody was saying at that time was, well, everybody was doping. So we’re all equal. Do you buy into that? Are you if everybody’s taken EPO at the time, and he’s such a wonderful rider? Let’s give him those victories, because everybody was on this stuff. person.

Andy McGrath 6:27
I mean, they’re all saying at the time, and I was partly what bothered him, you know, 5, 10 years later that he felt that he was being scapegoated. What we know now, is that essentially, you know, let’s be the what’s the word diplomatic here? Legally, most of the bunch, we’re, we’re doing it, there’s been lots of admissions. Do I think that makes it okay, in a level playing field? No, no, I don’t think so. That’s too simplistic, you know, that comes down to you know, things like science and natural amount of creates and how much room you have to dope, you know, or to get up to the rudimentary UCI testing limit of 50, which it was back then, you know, which was, like a broken speed Camry on a motorway. It barely stopped cheating. If you are caught over the 50, like, image credit limit you are. I think you were given a small fine, and you couldn’t race for two weeks? What kind of, you know, what kind of punishment? Is that really what kind of thing to stop? Anyone from having huge gains, really, that can change, change everything? So no, no, it wasn’t fair. Like it’s not fair. And there are a fair few riders who were probably in, in the minority who chose to be clean, you know, to ride on bread and water, as they say, who didn’t make it who had to take other jobs who. And that was the kind of that’s always a sad thing about doping in a way, you know, that. I don’t think anyone who’s has a positive for doping, who’s cheated. When they get into cycling, they don’t want to put a needle in their arm or have their blood transfused or whatever kind of ghoulish thing hopefully went on, doesn’t go on now. But along the line they get, they get sucked into certain culture and you know, you invest so much time and energy and sacrifice into something you love, and you have to love it. That you realise, well, this is the kind of Faustian deal that many of them thought I had to make that they thought that they didn’t do this, they would finish in the last group or second class group and they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t get the contract renewed. They wouldn’t even be close to winning, you know, to fulfilling their childhood dreams. And you have an abrupt turn turn pro in 1994, which was really probably the worst the worst possible year to turn pro maybe in cycling, because EPO was, that was the year that it was about to get ramped, and if it wasn’t already ramping.

Carlton Reid 9:00
And then Cofidis wasn’t exactly the cleanest of teams.

Andy McGrath 9:04
No. I mean, this is Vandenbrouke. He was on Mapei who were the Italian super team. You may see their products in your local homeware stores you know, they still make I think it’s grouting Yeah, ground

tiles, tile, yes. tiles.

things are still popular. I still smile when I see them and and b&q and all other good stores, but they were the best number one, and they really complimented in hindsight, complimented Vandenbrouke perfectly because often, you know, in in the classics of old classics, he won and he won a fair few, you know, scale the price hit Volk, obviously Liège–Bastogne–Liège. He could be the attacking foil or tactically to say Tom Steels, a sprinter or Johan Museuw, who was a permanent cobbles rider. But anyway, after three, four years, which were the most stable, far and away the most stable years, results wise and maybe mentality wise over his whole career. He has acted in he he wanted to be a contract. He wasn’t ever patient with very much ever. And he he chose good to French Team Cofidis for double the money basically. And they gave him he could pick, you know, his friends, his his teammates, so, pick several of those. And it started off well, but yeah, it transpired that they had they had a kind of sleeping pill and drinking culture. And that’s not a good combination. You know, even one thing. One of those dumb two accesses is bad, but they’d be on training camps, you know, in winter, this is how Vandenberg got hooked in the winter of 98. You know, they’d be it’d be bored you know, you do your training in the sun somewhere in Spain and then a radical Philip go mom, who I think one gateway will give himself. This strong, strapping Frenchman, you know, said why don’t you take this and we’ll have some drinks and what happens is you kind of you have a euphoric high. That’s beyond you know, extreme drunkenness. You know, often you don’t remember what you do when you’re on under the influence of still not an alcohol, you know? And they go out partying or they’re still the team campervan. And it’s kind of thing you wouldn’t believe it happened then, let alone now.

Carlton Reid 11:28
So what is Stilnoct? It’s in your book loads. So just tell us what Stilnoct is.

Andy McGrath 11:34
It’s a sleeping pill with various different brand names. I actually think Anglophone listeners might know it better as Ambien. I think that’s alright. Okay. Yes. Australian kind of version of it. Yes, it’s a sleeping pill. And you know, normally, I think it’s used for insomniacs. And if you, you take one you wait 20 minutes, and it should pretty much knock you out. But they will take festivals, you know, handfuls at the very least. And if you resist if you fight the urge to sleep with alcohol, then you you push through to this strange blankness and euphoric high. And David Miller also has some stories, I think in his, his autobiography of strange things, and I’m the influence, you know. And, you know, it’s kind of a reminder also, that professional cyclists, young freshmen, cyclists are very suggestible. They’re, maybe not quite all of them fully formed as adults, you know, when they turn someone like Vandenbroucke turn pro, at 19. He was more brought up in the sporting culture than really, as a human being, as an app was an adult human being it and kind of influenced by that. So they’re very fragile. And that’s the other thing, you know, we’ve covered it. So there was a lacking duty of care, you know, in terms of the management and, you know, they seem to know what was going on, but they didn’t do much about it really like they, they hired a psychologist to do a to have a talk with with the riders who basically laughed him out of the room. So you know, hindsight is 2020, but it was not a good team for Benbrook to band with a good culture.

Carlton Reid 13:21
Andy, let’s let’s dig into you, because you’ve written this book. And we will we’ll we’ll talk about it, tonnes coming up. But this is before your time in effect, certainly before your time as a journalist you’ve started working from what I can see from your LinkedIn profile. You started working for Cycling Weekly. And then you became the head of Rouleur, which many people wouldn’t want men will know both both titles of course. But this is in effect before your time. Was this before your were You were you like a big cycling fan? From a you know, a youth?

Andy McGrath 14:00
Yeah, I mean, whenever its heyday was before my time in terms of cycling fandom, I really got into it, you know, the Lance Armstrong years 2002 was the year that I you know, discovered this fantastic and strange and exotic sport. And I you know, I did come across Vanderbrouke but by then he was really really on the down slide you know the downfall. I do remember his 2003 Tour of Flanders at the time you know, I remember it. It being this remarkable comeback story where you know this guy who was ranked outside the top 500 in in the UCI standings came second in the tour Flanders out of nowhere. But you know, he was kind of the figure of fun the kind of the fallen hero then. But yeah, he was kind of trying to see I didn’t think much about him when I was at cycling weekly as a staff writer and then you know, joining ruler like, later on I to my first book was about Tom Simpson. I I published back in 2017 lovely kind of mix of contemporary photographs and stories from those who know Thompson best with Rapha, you know, one of their first books. And I was very fortunate that won the sports book of the year prize that year, which was a huge boon. Yes.

Carlton Reid 15:22
What did you do with 30 grand Andy?

Andy McGrath 15:25
I bought a Colnago Carlton, which possibly wasn’t seeing us, I don’t like to ride it in, you know, winter, or spring, sometimes autumn. So, you know, in the UK, I don’t ride a bike to get too messy. And then that really leaves you two or three good months of cycling. So that was, that was my dream bike, you know, when I was a teenager that that was a bike. But funnily enough, that was a brand that I saw in all the cycling magazines, and I obviously, cycling journalists are not the best paid people in the world, sorry to disappoint their any young listeners. But that was, I mean, that was a life changing amount of money for me. So I did go ahead and bought a Kona Argo. You know, that was the that was the main thing and the rest went boringly in the savings.

Carlton Reid 16:11
Now, I kind of threw that in there a to be rude, and see what you say. And so you know, is it wind, wind? And so on? No, it’s a bike. Okay, great. But also, that was a big deal to win that, that, yeah, that’s a big cash amount. And that’s a big deal to win the William Hill sports book of the year well done on on that. You’re basically your your, your, your, you’ve been writing about people who were from a different era, in effect. So these these are these are almost not united to me, Tom Simpson is isn’t a contemporary, obviously. But Frank Vandenbroucke is certainly somebody I would be very, very well well aware of when I was, you know, in into, in writing about cycle sport I was, he was around at that point. So you’re writing about people in effect from from from history. So you’re almost a historian, not just, you know, not just a biographer, you’re digging into past history,

Andy McGrath 17:13
I never really thought about it like that, that’s an interesting way of putting it maybe I should put historian on my LinkedIn profile. It feels like quite recent history, though.

Carlton Reid 17:22
It really isn’t, you know, when you look at this, this is 25 years, that’s a good time away, you know, for for somebody to still be talked about, and for books to be written, etc. That’s, that’s, that’s a federal what it is history.

Andy McGrath 17:36
That’s also what I like, because, you know, in a way, you know, Vandenbrouke, and Simpson both have, have had books written about them already. But I had the kind of maybe the naive hunch, which I would have told my publishers that I can get new stories, you know, there’s more things to be said, by different people, which I which, which I believed in, you know, turned out to be true. You know, there’s, there’s deeper perspective says revisionism to be done, there’s new things to be discovered. And, to be honest, I think I’ve found with, with slightly older people, you know, when you’re talking about the people around Simpson and Vandenberg, and in general, and in cycling there, they’ve lived long lives, you know, so they have more more stories, more life, experience, more more regrets, you know, more successes. But they also, yeah, that somehow they’re just that appeals to me, you know, they, they’re certainly more open, generally speaking. You know, compared to, for example, let’s say, if I was trying to write the, the biography of Matthew Vanderpool who, who won the Tour, Flanders, you know, very recently, there will be a whole circle of people around him that comparatively, it will be very close, very hard to get close to him. And very hard to get intriguing things now, you know, in 10 years time, maybe it’d be a different story. So I think that plays as a kind of advantage in a way to be going back rather than rather than always working with, you know, present champions,

Carlton Reid 19:14
the people you’ve written about in their books are clearly flawed heroes. So both both legendary, both died, that that kind of helps if you’re going to be a biographer, when somebody is no longer here in many respects, but they’re both flawed. So So is that something that naturally attracts a biographer because if you if you’re floored by de facto you’re kind of more interesting. You know, you’re you’re you’re there’s there’s chinks in that armour. There’s the stuff that a journalist stroke historian can get their teeth into. And most sports people tend to be kind of flawed anyway, you know, there’s many psychological studies which show that you know that the absolute top achievers have had some sort of formative bad experience in in their earlier life, which is then forced them to become these, these super men in terms of you know, male sport. So is that something that attracts you the fact that these are flawed heroes you can you can really talk about a flawed here and more than somebody who’s squeaky clean.

Andy McGrath 20:34
Well, firstly, I think we’re all flawed. You’re no one’s perfect. But the Yes, I completely see what you’re saying that these these are top athletes are people who push things to the extremes who, you know, can be quite flawed or extremely flawed, you know. And that’s more the thing, but it, there was no middle for Vandenbroucke things were either going fantastic or his confidence was 100%. Or it was the opposite, you know, there seem to be, you know, they will see a sixth gear or a neutral with him. And I think we’re all drawn to, to people who push limits that regular human beings wouldn’t normally you know, push. Who wouldn’t, you know, we we wouldn’t want to take you know, 10 sleeping pills, and then down some glasses of wine on a night out, but so there’s a kind of, I think there’s a slightly vicarious fascination sometimes. But Vanderburgh was also I wouldn’t say he was escaping from something, you know, a kind of traumatic incident in his childhood, but it’s definitely worth noting that his father was his uncle. He was part of a second dynasty. So his uncle was dubbed the John Louis mercs as Frank would be. Sean Luke, that’s right. Race for Persia had some great results. Never quite lived up to that moniker, who Ken and his father who was older than John Luke. So John’s brother, John Jack. He was on the cusp of being a pro site because he just signed his his contract. When hit, their father died and he became guardian to John Luke, and John Paul. His brothers, his younger brothers, so his history was snatched away from him before he could do anything about it, and he had to he had to sell off his his father’s Frank’s grandfather’s his basins and toilets and sinks because he was a kind of plumber handyman to shut down the business. So there was a kind of element of his Frank’s Father John Jack being being a real driving force for positive and for negative through his formative years, you know, he pushed him so hard, you know, he would, he would follow training with a stopwatch praise was kind of few and far between shows of shows of kind of love work, not not regular at all. And, you know, Frank felt that sometimes you’ve treated too much as a cyclist and not enough as a son you know, as a as a person. And they had, you know, they had fallings out throughout Frank’s life. And, you know, there was also a depression that John Jack had. Or John Paul, maybe it was actually his younger brother. And Frank had that too. So there’s a kind of there’s a, there’s a kind of site genetic, I think, vulnerability to two of, you know, mental health problems that was on show here. So there’s that extreme too. And this is what I kind of also find fascinating about not just pro cyclists, but people in general, athletes in general, that when we see them, just seeing when we see them in the Tour de France or tour Flanders, whatever, we’re seeing 1% of their life, you know. And for Frank, you know, when he was on the bike, that was a kind of safe place, really, when things are going well. That was his refuge. And it was really like when he wasn’t on the bike when he was by himself. And you know, he couldn’t be by himself, really, he loved being around people need to be around people to be supervised sometimes. But when he was alone, that was when the problem started, when he had time to think or to do certain misdemeanours or wrong things. That was a problem. And people don’t think about that, you know that. Everything really needs to be going well, and in the 99% of your life outside of the bike pace for the bike race to go well.

Carlton Reid 24:46
So you mentioned father, son relationship stuff there, which can reminded me that when I was looking at the emails of when we’ve interacted before, and when you were editor of Rouleur, you actually published I’m getting more into you about, you actually published a ride of my son of coming back from China, in Rouleur, and this is now four or five years back when he did that ride and you, you, you published an account of that ride. But you were with Rouleur for about five years, four years editor?

Andy McGrath 25:23
yeah, yeah, every year for nine years and I was here to for five years, you know, which was that was a dream. That was a dream, you know, I was in my mid 20s When I became editor, and I just loved hearing their stories where I’d actually been at cycle sport, which is part of cycling weekly part a part of that IPC Media Group, you know, 15 years ago, that was where I was kind of under under the wing of Ed Pickering, who, who’s now the Rouleur editor, you know, I was around all these great writers like Lionel Birnie, and, you know, just learning from them, you know, either by by osmosis or by asking stupid questions, which is a kind of great way to learn. But I’ve really found I was drawn to longer form storytelling, you know, articles, over 2000 words, long interviews, you know, two, three hours sometimes or, you know, spending a whole day or, or, you know, to with a pro cyclist to really, truly get under their skin, you know, because that’s also the media landscape in increasingly at the moment, sometimes, you’re given 20 minutes, 25 minutes in a hotel lobby, to write a long feature that’s supposed to you know, be chapter and verse about the cyclist. And that’s not you know, that’s not sufficient. I really was kinda like an entry kind of opened the doors you know, ruler when you said you with ruler that kind of had a special effect, they knew you were gonna do a very thorough, well researched, well written job, which I think really helped. And this is also the last landscape we’re in that was, you know, I joined over 10 years ago, and slightly magazines, were more plentiful, were more more profitable. And I still read paper, by the way, I’d never read a Kindle course. And I’m, I’m kind of 35 going on 65 I just like, you know, I’m looking at a bookcase with about 200 books right now. And the same goes for magazines, I just, I’m a magazine guy. And I don’t see that changing. And I’m kind of proud of that, because I’m slightly scared that in even in 10 years, Time Magazine might go the way of a vine on and be a collector’s item when it really shouldn’t be

Carlton Reid 27:42
well, Cycling Weekly is older than Liège–Bastogne–Liège. So that was that was 1891. So that presumably, has has a place in the market, almost guaranteed a lot of the other magazines, maybe not so much, and ruler has a place in that is long form. It is something that, you know, the pro riders as well as cycle sport fans will love and look up to because it does go into immense detail and great care, and the quality of the paper, all that kind of stuff. So it’s I guess, it’s the magazines, in the middle, that that fall between those two kind of different models that are going to suffer.

Andy McGrath 28:28
Perhaps, you know, the Rouleur owner told me a few years ago that there was there was going to be survival of the fittest and you know, he’s turned out to be right. I think it’s also the care you know, the photography and in rural areas, you know, top top notch I think people like that baby surprise, you know, sometimes have little feedback I got as editor, you know, that I could just see the, you know, often the subscription numbers rising and you see the sales figures and I like to think there’s a very happy silent majority. And maybe the numbers pull that out that, you know, some people on social media will either go on there to say how fantastic something is, or how appalling it is or that their magazine never arrived, you know, and that’s fine, you know, but that’s, that’s the world we live in. But I’m not even sure about cycling weekly, I’ve got a huge attachment to that magazine sentimentally. But it could be that that ends up being being an online only presence in 10 years time or you know five years time and I really hope that isn’t the case. But that more and more people are reading things on their phones or their tablets. So you know, papers printed so as a find its its place you know, but realised yet definitely one for the connoisseur. Um, and we do crazy thing crazy fun things. You know, I remember taking a crew of photographers and writers to Paris-Roubaix, which is my favourite race. Because Because I said next year we’re going to do a whole edition of Rouleur just around Paris-Roubaix. And we designed it with a kind of cobblestone font. And we kind of you know, each story was a sector basically and we did it you know, we were there for a week. We worked bloomin hard. And I think we saw six sectors on the day, which for goes from south to north, took some driving that pushed the limits of the highway code. But it was you know, we, we just had carte blanche to do pretty wild things like you know, we had a Gonzo writer called Mort not bow, who was Danish, who, who who divided opinion, you know, but I’ve never seen anyone write like that in cycling media, let alone sports media like and he always got the interview, he always ingratiated himself with the biggest names in cycling, you know, and that’s what I loved was like different styles make make a magazine, for example, you know, Morton was meant to Morton and Jakob, who we call the crazy Danes is right of geography in a combo for several years, so we’re meant to spend two hours with Lance Armstrong in the height of his, you know, scandalous air, I think was 2013 2014. And they ended up spending two or three days I played golf with him, you know, and it was just, yeah, like, the one thing about Rouleur that we wanted to change was that to make it not seem so stuffy or serious, because because we were having a lot of fun making it and we all love cycling, and there’s a lot of, you know, humour to be had with it. You know, you might look at the black and white photographs. And you know, think it’s been ernest but you know, we tried to change that every now and then. It’s

Carlton Reid 32:01
clearly it was it was founded in a party in a Guy Andrews but partly with Simon Mottram of a Rapha, so it’s like, A, in some ways, like a Rapha, journal it had that certain had that, you know, in the early days, certainly had that Rapha you know, aesthetic. And, and power to its elbow for having that aesthetic, because Simon, you know, absolutely went in it, I can say this into the veins of cycling at that time with with with, you know, a very beautiful magazine.

Andy McGrath 32:40
Yeah, he was, you know, he was pivotal to its founding like, along with Guy who, who was the founder, you know, they they saw they saw something different. And they, you know, they put in the money in the effort fearing that no one would buy that first issue which now goes for hundreds on eBay. And, you know, in many ways, it was similar to I think Jacque Waterlase courir magazine in the 50s and 60s, you know, that style and that aesthetic and you know, Guy didn’t want any reviews. He wanted to show the cycling that you know, that he loved that also a child with the Rapha aesthetic and their values. And basically, the Rouleur blueprint that he laid out in those first issues is still what Rouleur is, you know, it’s you know, in depth interviews, it’s photography with a difference. And you ever heard is actually coming up for nearly 20 years. I think it’ll be in a couple of years time. And

Carlton Reid 33:42
Rapha is 20 years old this year. So that makes me feel old. Because now, I was the first person to report on Rapha’s founding on in would have been, it would have been online, I would I probably did a story on bikebiz.com on this, you know, strange aesthetics based, cycled clothing manufacturer, you know, coming in from the advertising world. So I broke the story of Rapha coming in into cycling, and then now it’s that 20 years or so their current PR you know, emails me and says, Oh, would you like to do a story on on Rapha being 20 It’s like, oh my god, they’re 20 and I did a story on them, you know, and it doesn’t feel 20 years away. So it’s history, as well. So we’re kind of coming full circle on on history there. Now on on LinkedIn, you actually say you’re one of your career highlights is actually writing for Bicycling. So what why was that a career highlight highlight?

Andy McGrath 34:50
Did I say that? Oh, that’s good. I just I just wanted to write for you know, one of the tops like a magazine. I’ve been seeing it all my life. You know, when I went freelance two years ago, that was basically my chance to write for whoever I wanted. And yeah, I’m a fellow fellow news. Now fellow went online. So I just saw this kind of this prestige of writing for for an American publication who, who I always thought, you know, did some really good journalism. And they do. I mean, it’s most rigorous fact checking process I’ve ever had, and they did some beautiful photography, it was a long profile of Peter Sagan in his retirement. Yeah, and I went to Slovakia to see, you know, his family with old friends. And I went to Spain to interview him. And it kind of felt like old school journalism, you know, also that they back you to do that, you know, both in terms of time, word count, and paying expenses.

Carlton Reid 35:56
And paying, because that’s why I like writing for American magazines is they pay five times more than any British magazine.

Andy McGrath 36:06
Yeah, I’m not sure if we should be advertising that this is true. Yeah, saying the Americans taking out lucrative stores. But no, absolutely. Like, that’s the thing that I’m not sure why it’s five times more. So I understand, you know, the, the kind of living costs, generally speaking, in the US in cycling friendly pockets is probably higher. So, so they were charging more, but five times more. You know, word rates for journalists, and in cycling identity have changed for 20 years, you know, since Rapha’s inception, which is kind of sad. It’s more of a labour of love than it ever was, and it was still a labour of love 20 years ago. But yeah, like the bicycling and you know, writing for cycling class I’ve written for basically every Anglophone cycling title in my not so young career now I’m 35. And it’s just a pleasure, you know, that something that you know, the teenage me will be super proud of, and you know, that, don’t me, it’s, it’s still proud of, you know, it’s something really nice to go in my bookshelf. And it’s always new stories and new angles, and well, not new sci fi magazines, really. But I kind of live in hope that I can keep doing that mainly around cycling, but I am you know, one slightly sad thing is that I’m trying to diversify slightly and you know, write about different sports, as well as cycling.

Carlton Reid 37:39
I see you on art substack. So that’s really diversifying.

Andy McGrath 37:45
That’s not That’s not for profit. That’s just for me. I just wanted to ride this is, this is something that I started this year, just going to local galleries and doing short, short reviews, you know, with just to learn about art, and to see what I like what I don’t like, you know, I always, you know, I’ve kind of thought that modern art is a bit pretentious, but I’ve never really been to see that much. So I thought it could be fun. And it’s proven to be fun. But the irony is that my my work deadlines are kind of impinging on my art reviews to the point that I haven’t posted anything in about two months, but I will soon for my 20 substack followers. No, it’s just fine. You know, you can live in deadlines. And with a bit of stress for so long that it’s a nice kind of thing to try to do to, you know, flex some different writing muscles, but also learn about something totally away from sport, which is really the thing that I love.

Carlton Reid 38:49
So I want to dig further into that level of cycling and into God is dead, your book. But right now I’d like to go across to my colleague David, who will give us a short ad break.

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Carlton Reid 40:24
So we are back with Andy McGrath and Andy is the well as he’s been telling us in the the before the ad break that he’s been telling us about his career trajectory through cycling into into now doing an art substack even for the for the fun of it and the hell of it and the learning of it. Which Which sounds fantastic, because I should do that too. I should learn new stuff. But the thing we started this podcast with was with the the anniversary coming up to 25 years since since Frank Vandenbroucke and we can we call him VDB Do you think we can we can really Yeah. Yeah. Or should we say Frank goes to Frank because really it is it’s like it’s a it is actually an unknown nickname for other people in Belgium isn’t is not not just something that’s pertinent to him.

Andy McGrath 41:23
That’s right. There’s lots of bands you know something? Yeah, Vanda

Carlton Reid 41:27
something. Okay. So VDB we can we can go with that, as we kind of use a shorthand gumming up. So your book 2002. This came out, and he and it’s the rise and fall of Frank Vandenbroucke cycling’s great wasted talent is the subhead to God is dead. Now God is dead is clearly a Nietzsche reference. Also a reference to when he was coming up when when Frank was coming up through the sport, lots of people treated him as a god. And then in his autobiography, he talks about not being a god, but the very fact that he’s saying he’s not a God means kind of other people were saying he was a god. So that’s, that’s a hell of a provocative title for a book. Andy Yeah, absolutely.

Andy McGrath 42:25
I just correct you there. It came out in 2022. If it came out in 2002, I would have been 14 and

Carlton Reid 42:33
I’m sorry, sorry. 20222. Sorry. Yeah. No, that would have been deep military. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry, kind of literal, you

Andy McGrath 42:39
know, the spoiler alert as you pointed out earlier as sports which makes it a kind of backwards who done it or you know, what happened to his life when you know, beside nd and also, you know, his friend contemporary or when I went on to wrote a song called Cody is dead. So I just thought it was too there are too many, you know, perfect similarities to not have that title. It does, I suppose it you know, catches the eye, as well, as you know, telling you what happened. And it intrigues and it should stop people in their tracks, you know, make them think, you know, who was this? Cyclists because most people most passing people in bookshops, for example, wouldn’t have heard of Frank Vandenbrouke, some people at the time, you know, very briefly, he he was on the cover of pro cycling in the UK, for example, he was in the top three of the world rankings, he was going to be the biggest things since sliced bread on 11 speed. And then and this is the thing that half the book is really the rise of a sporting talent, exceptional sporting promise, despite all his problems, you know, that he had the human for example, he was involved in a in a crash with a rally car when he was four years old. Of all things, you know, in the country lanes where he grew up, and that meant that after a long, long recovery, his left leg was always two centimetres shorter and thinner, and the right leg which you would think will be problematic for for a pro cyclist and it proved to be problematic. You know, often during his career, he was always fighting these knee injuries. But anyway, he he rose up at a time when the stars were older, you know, they were 30 Plus, and they were quite bland in comparison to him. You know, we had Indurain, Rominger, Museuw, and Frank Vandenbrouke was this 20 year old counterpoint who said good things to all the Belgian media and was handsome, you know, he was good looking kid. But he raised with such panache. And he won unusually early unusually often. And for someone that yeah, when he was a junior, he won half his races which is ridiculous for someone who who wasn’t a great sprinter either, you know, he he had to attack really to win most of the time.

Carlton Reid 45:14
So it’s an awful lot of is not just legacy but at the time was he just looked so beautiful on a bike I mean there’s there’s a little bit of you know, homo-eroticism going on there but he’s just he just looked wonderful with you know those those as you’re saying those those the legs being shorter and thinner. I hadn’t actually noticed that but it just it looks so beautiful on a bicycle. He’s just like the dream rider.

Andy McGrath 45:42
Yeah, and that’s the way that we the most of us wish we could you know, pedal that’s like pedalling and in a dream. It’s that the French word souplesse. It kind of describes the way that he pedalled you know, with, with no, either body barely moved, didn’t move when the back was still when he kind of cycled it was like ballerina esque if that is the right word for a male ballerina probably is. And it was so incongreous, too, because his legs was so thin. You know, they were like pipe cleaners. Really. They weren’t particularly muscular. But they were tanned and yeah, like it. It is funny about cycling isn’t all Pro Cycling that sometimes it we don’t just admire the best riders. With my style, we My grace. For example, I still remember this Russian writer called Mikhail Ignatieff who won a few Olympic goals on the track. And he didn’t win any anything of any note, you know, in Tour de France, all the all the big leagues of road racing, but his pedal stroke was just gorgeous, just like you know. I imagine there was no human around years of you know, Russian training in the Velodrome but

Carlton Reid 46:55
so that you’re definitely getting back to that kind of Rapha aesthetic which, which Simon Mottram tapped into, you know that it’s not about always winning. It’s sometimes about just looking good and being stylish and having panache. You know, that Tom Simpson also taps into that with his suits and his writing style.

Andy McGrath 47:17
Yeah, absolutely. Like, it’s not about winning always. It’s about how you make people feel. It’s about how you bring the fans along with you all, all the media. And there’s some riders in their 30s. Now, their favourite cyclists was Frank Vandenbrouke. That 999 the age pastorally. Age is the race of their dreams. I think I’ll have an arson who’s a former Belgian champion, said he watched it 200 times on replay I feel it was your bet. The great Belgian bike racer, idolise Vandenbrouke, that and there’s something it wasn’t just results like we can all have, well, not all of us, pro cyclists can have a page on Pro Cycling stats or whatever results. Software, you use that, that shows you what you’ve won, but it doesn’t say anything for how you want it, you know, like with, with daring, long range attacks, like Vandenberg sometimes did, or what you said to the media afterwards, you know, giving them great quotes. And that’s part of his charm. And you know, why people wrote books about him in Belgium, although that said, you know, if, if he hadn’t been a kind of fatal hero, if he hadn’t died so young, it would, it would be a happy a different story. Because

Carlton Reid 48:37
there is that Amy Winehouse, you kind of mentioned that, you know, that Marilyn Monroe that kind of that here, who’s a die young they stay heroes. So there’s there’s that element of and Africa somewhere else in your book where you talk about how people couldn’t have imagined him getting older anyway. You know, there was that that there was almost a fatalism there. That this is somebody who is, you know, the Icarus figure, you know, burning bright climbing high, that will probably come a cropper like almost wasn’t a surprise to many people, the way his his life ended.

Andy McGrath 49:15
Absolutely. I think sometimes that’s it’s not easy to say that, you know, 10 years after he’s died when, you know, after the fact. And the problem was that he had all these issues, he had depression briefly and he became addicted to, you know, cocaine and amphetamines. But he will always find a way out of it that I think a lot of people thought that he would eventually find a way out of his problems, you know, the 10 years from the age when the end of his life in 2009 We were just roller coaster teaser kind of cliche like, but he would always drag himself out. So that’s the sadness and and they were under a lot of pain. April, he said to me, there was some regret, you know, in the quotes that his agent pulled the gator that said, when it came to his drug addiction that they were, he compared it to a kind of sinking ship and said that, you know, when they were bailing the water out, they should really be plugged in trying to plug the hole which was quite a kind of poignant quote like I thought so and so one more thing, too We, of course it gets into sad tragic territory, but you know, it’s not the kind of misery misery fest biography No, and I found them bro was loved by so many people and charmed and joked around with so many people like, he was a great impressionist, he, he was like a bouncy teenager, really, at the age of 35, still, you know, like, messing around with his roommate, and putting toothpaste on the bathroom mirror. And he had this kind of universal boyishness that people found it very hard to be mad at him, even when he did, you know, quite bad things or selfish things or acted vainly, which he could do. So there’s, you know, at the core of it, it goes much beyond the cyclists into this human being who could be lovable, but can also be very frustrating and, you know, do some bad things.

Carlton Reid 51:26
So the book is, yes, it’s not, you’re right. It’s not all doom and gloom. But there’s an awful lot in there. You can’t get away from this about addiction, doping clearly. And then mental health care or lack thereof, in in, in not just in cycling, but in probably in society as a whole. Yeah, like, I

Andy McGrath 51:46
kind of think that. If we look back, even 10 years alone, 20 years, the duty of, of care for professional athletes was really lacking. You know, I think it’s really sad that there were top level riders not just Vandenberg, who were going to psychologist or psychiatrist, but we’re keeping it strong, you know, because it was seen as so shameful, you know. And to me that shy, that taps into the old school soccer mentality of, you know, the way they used to be the way they used to train, you know, do 300k Drink very little, eat very little. Ride harder, don’t complain. And that could work for some people. But that is not a caring way to look up to most people. You know, that’s, and that can come back to by many athletes, you know, and I think that’s what happened. Vandenbrouke’s psychologist probably helped to help him to live longer. You know, that’s what he said in his his autobiography. Actually, Vandenbrouke

Carlton Reid 52:52
That’s Jef Brouwers?

Andy McGrath 52:54
Yeah, exactly. And, in fact, he was probably an early kind of adopter of this help that he needed, you know, not just for, you know, the cycling was one thing, but they were trying to cure his kind of addiction problems and is show him that he he was loved, you know, even though he felt abandoned often. And that’s the crux of it, that, you know, this need to be loved that I kind of thing most of, well, pretty much all all of us have, whether it’s conscious or subconscious. And he always felt unloved or abandoned, despite, you know, the obvious legion of fans that he had and everything else. And that was a tragedy, there are human tragedy.

Carlton Reid 53:37
So in your in your book, there’s a kind of murder mystery, and to the book, murder, mystery, suicide, whatever. So Jeff, Browers was the psychologist about it, he basically told you that he thinks it was it was it was suicide, because he was, as you’ve just said that he needs people around and he was quite alone in that grubby hotel room in Senegal. But then other people, family obviously blame the people he was with and don’t want to have that association. With with suicide, you don’t really come you don’t come to a conclusion because you can’t really come to a conclusion, especially as it happened in Senegal, where it’s kind of difficult to come to any conclusion anyway. But there’s, there’s various people give their their opinions weighing all that up. What’s your opinion?

Andy McGrath 54:40
I don’t have to give one you know, like, if it isn’t clear, factually, and I can’t be certain, but I’ve laid out you know, that’s the job of the biography is to talk to everyone that was close to Vandenbrouke around him at the time. He was actually you know, basically there and include what they said Um, but no. I think that there could be something very well and what you have for hours says, you know, the psychologists who, you know, he was a man who spent hours with him and in that in that room I can see why he would say that. But one of the great, one of the great, strange things about this is, is that mystery like that, you know, Vandenbrouke had never even been to Africa, and he decided to go to Senegal, ye. And this filmic ending, you know, where, whereas you say, a prostitute was the last person to see him alive. So maybe he wanted it to be, you know, clouded in some kind of doubt that it could never be be definitive. But either way, you know what, like, whichever way that he died, it was pretty tragic that that he died, you know, and he’s not the only one from that era, either. He had Pantani, you had Jose Maria Jimenez, you know, and I think it’s, it’s partly a kind of symptom of the doping culture that what they were taking to perform in bike races made it much easier to get into recreational drugs. And both of those things, mess with your mind and your body. And probably your, your, your soul, you know, the core of who you really feel you are and what you’re doing, you know, whether you think it’s cheating or not that moral maze, it, it can’t be easy. I’m there must have been a hot a horrible time to be a pro cyclist.

Carlton Reid 56:41
People think of these things doping is a black and white issue. Yet, there’s a spectrum here, you know, is I mean, the UCI classifies too many coffees, too many espressos as doping. But, you know, four or five, okay. You know, marginal gains, you know, all these things, which which you can legally do, and yet you somehow trip over a line, if you take this other thing. And the other thing is, is meant to be this evil thing. And that’s clearly you know, the wrong thing to do. But vitamin supplements and you know, creatine, all of these things are performance enhancing, why did they not get the stigma that EPO get? So it’s a spectrum and addicted, it’s very difficult to say this as a black and white thing, when there are many things that can make you better on a bike, including EPO, but then you know, just your energy gel makes you better on a bike, should we be adding energy gels, it’s there’s very little nuance gets into it talking about doping, it’s just black and it’s white. Yeah,

Andy McGrath 57:57
when really if you’re saying is that it’s basically shades shades of grey, you know that the modern game does you’re in the peloton is ketones, which are not banned, but they seem to be ethically questionable. And my rudimentary understanding of the science around it is also that no one knows how, how it can affect the career in a few years time or five years time that we might be seeing some writers already suffering from not using them in the right way or overusing them. Well,

Carlton Reid 58:35
my wife is a is a diabetes doctor. So she knows about ketones, and she knows about insulin, as well. And insulin was, was clearly one of the things that Frank used to basically say he was going to kill himself and he’s going to use insulin to do so. So potentially that was, it’s very hard to trace insulin as if you’re going to kill yourself with insulin. So potentially, that’s, that’s, yeah, you’re gonna kill yourself insulin is a pretty good way of doing it.

Andy McGrath 59:11
Yeah. And you know, why would you why would you take that to Senegal? Or how would you source it? You know, what? He wasn’t a diabetic, you know, so. Yeah, I won’t give away you know, the ending or, you know, what everyone said about the ending, but, you know, several people were pointing towards suicide, certainly in the book, but yeah, like, I just going back to the grey area of crime doping. I just hope it’s a bit more nuanced. Now. The way that people regard dope is like I even think that you know, 10 years ago. It it’s really hard. It’s very hard, isn’t it? Because they have cheated. They have done something wrong, and they’ve done it knowingly, you know, in probably 99% of cases. Despite the numerous They can excuse.

Carlton Reid 1:00:02
Yes, there have been quite a few good ones. False twin

Andy McGrath 1:00:10
Yeah, false twin, pigeon pie, weeks from a Colombian grandmother. It’s got

Carlton Reid 1:00:17
I bought it for my dog. Okay.

Andy McGrath 1:00:20
Yeah, well, that was bingo. So on the one hand, they are not above appropriate, you know, the rider. They are number one, you know, anything that turns up in their body knowingly or unknowingly, if they’re positive, that’s that’s on them, you know, that’s how it is. And I totally get that. But on the other hand, it still seems to me that the culture around doping IE, you know, the people that help them or, or facilitate, you know, people like team doctors, team managers, people in the know, people who are still in the sport, you know, nowadays seem to get away with it, pretty much, often quite, quite scot free. And that’s not okay. And I’ve had, you know, cyclists who were pros in the 80s through to, you know, the last decade, you know, saying a similar thing, but that’s a thing that needs to be changed that needs to be snuffed out like the right is kind of like the symptom of a wider problem. And of course, if we knew the answer if the UCI or Wilder knew the answer, you know, anti doping foundations famously have much smaller smaller budgets and maybe even the biggest cycling team in the world they’re always fighting kind of a chasing battle they’re always you know, one step behind maybe against the latest wonder drug or the kind of latest cheats but I think I can save some some confidence Pro Cycling is is cleaner now than it was in Vandenbrouke’s heyday. But I also fear that it’ll never be totally clean partly because of human nature partly because of the money was going up and up and partly because of this bizarre kind of will to win this drive is addiction

Carlton Reid 1:02:13
Yeah, can even amateur races you know, people have been caught doping that will to win

Andy McGrath 1:02:22
Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s sad in my opinion, you know, if you’re, if you’re doping to win a category three cap for race. What’s the point? You know,

Carlton Reid 1:02:32
do you race have you written Have you raced

Andy McGrath 1:02:38
I did a few time trials when I was up at university in York. Beautiful place to ride around there Oh, and I did someone’s teenager with the Addiscombe in Croydon that’s where I’m from. no great shakes, Carlton. I’ve never meant to be the next Frank Vandenbroucke much better at writing than riding my bike has put it that way. But

Carlton Reid 1:03:08
yeah, you’re a rider. Not a racer. So that that that that Colnago that you bought is something that you would ride on a nice day with no mud around so what you’re writing normally what’s what’s if you’re not running the Colnago what you’re writing

Andy McGrath 1:03:33
it’s a time XRS I’ll steel a nice bike from now not a pub bike.

Andy McGrath 1:03:38
It’s a decent bike it was just it just keeps going and it gets me around town if I want to ride in the autumn or winter on the road so I’ll use Quickstep used to ride it back in the day me 20 years ago you know Palpatine and all that

Carlton Reid 1:03:57
which did you pick that up in your in your magazine days then is that was you kind of like you somehow acquired it back then.

Andy McGrath 1:04:07
Well, the thing about me is I’m I’m not I’m no techie I’m really good people that would have seen me trying to fix a puncture back in the cycling weekly office 15 years ago would have realised that immediately now I’m there because I like riding my bike. I just to be completely honest, like I don’t know much about bike tech and isn’t the most interesting thing about cycling for me, you know, I’m the people that ride the bikes, you know, the pros and all their you know, differences and their opinions and personalities. That’s much more interesting to me than say this bike weighs eight kilos or this carbon one weigh 7.5 But that’s that’s just me, you know, each have their own. Yeah, I’d much rather you know ride a bike then. do the legwork for it, you know, which is but actually need to get better at you know mechanics and changing chains and that kind of thing and maybe on a warm summer’s day, I’ll just practice doing

Carlton Reid 1:05:13
that. That’s what bike shops are for. That’s my opinion. Now I’m with you. I’m with you on the I’m not fussed about technical stuff I’ve never really been happy writing about the technical stuff doesn’t excite me writing about technical stuff or weighing things and yeah, it’s the people that is all the stories that are around it that that are from me, personally. A more interesting.

Andy McGrath 1:05:40
Yeah, absolutely. Like, I find it hard to rhapsodise about tech, you know, whereas I can. Yeah, like I kind of wish I was more intrigued by it, but I’m just not, that’s just my personality. And the funny thing is, as a former tech magazine, Ed editor, you really you do have to slightly balance the editorial side with not keeping advertisers happy, but keeping them onside. And there was a slight tech element with Rila. But we we did it in our own way with basically treating the bike or the other kit, like a like a model, you know, hanging on trees or oversea wall, or all kinds of crazy sheets.

Carlton Reid 1:06:29
So if people want to and we’re now wrapping up here, Andy, if people want to get your book and be maybe getting in touch with you or find out what you’re doing, where do they find you on websites on on social media?

Andy McGrath 1:06:44
They can find me on X formerly known as Twitter before Elon Musk made it even worse. Yeah, at Andy McGrath, that’s a n d, why. MC Gra? So, take off the th basically for my surname. Yeah, they want to buy the book, just any online bookseller, really from from Amazon to Waterstones to Blackwell’s to whoever, whoever you like, it’s on there. And I’ll put

Carlton Reid 1:07:19
your art stack substack link in in the show notes. So people can also you know, if they’re not interested in cycling, they could they could follow you for your, you know, your your opinions on Anthony Conway says

Andy McGrath 1:07:31
the next step comes from me being an expert, what’s your, what do you think?

Carlton Reid 1:07:39
Well, I guess if you’re not into the techie side, you know, and you’re just looking at maybe just the people behind these things, rather than the art itself? I don’t know. Is that do they? Are you looking at the art itself? What’s going to interest you?

Andy McGrath 1:07:51
I am mainly looking at the art itself being and that ties into their lives and the era they were in. It’s a bit of everything really, you know, if it’s modern art that I’m likely to question, you know, how did this make me feel? You know, what do I feel? What does this elicit in me kind of understand how much work is took or, you know, the literal art artistry behind it? That’s one element. But, you know, I just went to see Frank Howell back. He’s at the Courtauld in London. He’s basically the last surviving artist from that Lucien Freud. Francis Bacon set in the 1950s. And I thought it was fantastic and but it’s only black and white because he didn’t have the money for pain in 1950s, which I’ve become a pain which is also an insight into a different world, you know, that I’m very fortunate to not be in you know, post World War reconstruction. But anyway, we we digress. Any followers are welcome.

Carlton Reid 1:09:02
Yes, no, I’ll put that link in. For sure. And to your other things. So Andy, thank you so much for for talking to us on me, us.

Andy McGrath 1:09:11
Thank you. Absolute pleasure.

Carlton Reid 1:09:15
And that’s it for today’s show. Thanks for listening to Episode 351 of the spokesmen podcast brought to you in association with Tern bicycles, show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com As I mentioned earlier, the next episode, dropping real soon, will be a chat with cycling writer, Laura Laker. But meanwhile, get out there and ride …

17th March 2024

The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast

EPISODE 349: Turn on Strava for everyday journeys, it could reshape streets for the better

SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles

HOST: Carlton Reid

GUEST: Tom Knights, Strava Metro

TRANSCRIPT

Carlton Reid 0:13
Welcome to Episode 349 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Sunday 17th of March 2024.

David Bernstein 0:28
The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you’re commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That’s t e r n bicycles.com to learn more.

Carlton Reid 1:03
I’m Carlton Reid. On today’s show, I’m talking with Tom Knights. He’s the senior manager of partnerships and marketing for Strava Metro. This is a super-useful active travel city-making dataset-service from the athlete tracking app. And if you bristled at the word athlete, because you think there’s no sport in transport, listen on …

Strava metro was very, very

insistent in 2020. About how successful cycling and and walking in all active mode because of the pandemic and the blog posting was, you know, we’re very pained to say this. However, you know, it’s really, really, we’re going crackers with the amount of cycling as you know, the bike boom, yeah, what did go amazing. Now, the bike industry right now is famously and woefully massively down in the dumps. So what have you seen with usage? So what has happened since 2022? actual usage of bicycles not just, you know, we know the sales are bad. Is the usage bad also?

Tom Knights 2:21
Yeah, that’s a really good question. And actually like to say the kind of the free, the free, free call to Strava Metro kind of suddenly going free was actually very well timed, unfortunately, under very difficult circumstances globally. One of the reasons like I say, we kind of made Strava Metro free wasn’t actually because of the pandemic and the looming kind of crisis. And obviously, this switch to human powered transportation. It was like, almost like an unfortunate timing, but but obviously beneficial for cities and all the planners that start to use this data. So yes, we definitely saw this huge boom during the kind of 2020 21 era. And thankfully, because a lot of cities and a lot of regions and governments had the foresight to start investing in protecting cycle lanes in safe routes, which we know is one of the biggest barriers to people actually kind of picking up a bicycle. Lot of those initiatives have stayed, and we hope that they’ve stayed because actually, they’ve been able to see some of the Strava activity straight through Strava Metro, and then use that against other data sources to start to understand actually, is this being used in terms of trends, and overall, we’ve definitely seen more of a normalisation but again, what we are seeing is obviously, people looking for alternatives to either commute, and then well, kind of 2024 the word commute looks a bit different than maybe it did in 2019. But anything that’s a utility trip, and essentially through safe and accessible infrastructure. That’s what we know. And I’m sure you know, from all the kind of conversations you’ve had over the years, that’s the biggest driver to people, making it feel safe. So, long story short, yes, we’ve definitely seen a normalisation now, in terms of growth

Carlton Reid 4:06
Normalisation, that sounds like quite a bit of a euphemism for, for what?

Tom Knights 4:12
So I guess the new the new normal as it were, so we’ve definitely seen that growth. And then now what we’ve seen, like I say, as people who are consistently cycling now, and then obviously, we hope that through infrastructure improvements into society into communities, that will then also encourage even more folks to pick up a bicycle on that front.

Carlton Reid 4:33
I’m gonna carry on digging here, because I think it’s quite important. So that graph that was on the Strava Metro, I remember it well, the human powered transportation one Yep. Yeah. So I mean, that was that was great. But, you know, so when you’ve been normalisation, is that graph, it went up like crazy. And do you mean by normalisation that it went down so well usage is down or has

plateaued,

Tom Knights 5:00
so not I mean, it’s difficult to say but I wouldn’t say plateau because we’re always seeing kind of growth. And that’s what’s so exciting a and I can’t necessarily kind of say a lot more about the Strava core Strava world because of course, that’s a different kind of department as it were. But in terms of the Metro world, and what we’re seeing in terms of cycling, in general, we’ve just seen that spike from 2019 to 2020, that continued growth into 2021. And now what is is probably more of that kind of continuous steady growth. As opposed to that, we I wouldn’t say we’ve definitely seen any kind of drop off as it were on that front.

Carlton Reid 5:34
So it’s interesting, because we now have metrics that we just didn’t have, you know, 10, 15 20 years ago, from an industry perspective, used to be able to track

sales of number of bikes, and but you never knew whether, actually people even though a few bikes sold, actually, people might actually be riding more, potentially. So now we have metrics from from people like you, where you can not only track the number of bikes sold, but you can also track roughly whether people are using those bikes. So that’s fascinating information from a market point of view. And the way I’m going from on that is

you’ve got some high end holiday companies, you know, Glorious Gravel going to Sri Lanka, Namibia, all these amazing places with people who got clearly a lot of money and a fair bit of time. Yeah, still getting out there cycling. So when we haven’t seen that end shift at all. But no, that’s the rarefied end, isn’t it? That’s like, Yeah, from from a metro point of view.

Tom Knights 6:42
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I in terms of, you know, think travel and tourism, that is obviously a kind of luxury. And, you know, for kind of people a having the kind of means to kind of jump on a plane or to kind of visit and take the time off. And that’s great, though, for kind of seeing that, that boom, because we want people to kind of get an introduction to cycling in general. And if that means discovering it on a holiday tour, fantastic. Hopefully, that then translates into cycling into work maybe two or three days a week, or suddenly dropping a car trip once a week, because they’ve discovered the joy of cycling. But I think January what we’re hoping, though, is we see this bike boom, fueled by better and safer streets. That’s, that’s our kind of main concern is that, if you build it, I know, you’ve heard this phrase a lot before, you know, if you build it, people will come. And we know that from Strava Metro data, when you look at the kind of streets where there’s been investment, the Before and After Effects is amazing. See this kind of increase in trips. Now, of course, you might say, Well hold on Strava growth. But actually, what we’re seeing is that Strava Metro data alongside Eco-counter or Telraam data, you can start to kind of normalise and build a model. And I think that’s what we’re we’re hoping that people can start to, as you mentioned, all these amazing datasets start to pull these together, and then really build this picture to kind of tell a different story than perhaps maybe the negative stories are saying in terms of, you know, cycling booms over or no one’s using this bike lane, etc.

Carlton Reid 8:10
And this is an obvious question, okay. And this is a question that I’m sure you are incredibly well used to batting away, and you know, you’re gonna get it. And you, you could almost do it yourself. So that is in your documentation. It’s all about athletes. Of course, when you put that into Strava Metro, you’re talking about non lycra. I know you discuss this on your blogs, but just just tell me now, why I would be wrong to suggest that Mamils, women on bikes and lycra why the data is robust, even though you talk about athletes?

Tom Knights 8:53
Yeah, no, you’re quite right. And it’s a, it’s a really good point. And I suppose, from the data point of view, we’re not looking at,

we look at those as activities and people and trips so that the athletes is more of a kind of Strava kind of communications in a playful way to call our community athletes, and you’ve probably seen various different messages over the years about, you know, if you’re an athlete, you’re on Strava. And, and essentially, there is a lot of truth in that, you know, we want anyone who moves through human powered transportation, or through moves and find their joy in discovering movement ways we would define as an athlete, you know, anyone who is doing that, now appreciating the world of transportation planning and bike lanes and commuting, you might not think, you know, cycling across the Waterloo Bridge in the morning at 830. You’re an athlete, but essentially, from a metro point of view, what we’re looking to do is see these community based trips as data points, like say that can be used for improving infrastructure on that front. And I think the way that actually I would position it personally is often thinking, well, everyone who uploads a ride on to Strava is a human powered counter, because through through Metro

That’s going towards some kind of better cause in terms of funding and reviewing active travel investment.

But I do understand your point about you know, Mamil. And you know, a lot of drivers growth in the early days was fueled by that amazing core set of athletes. And you know, I grew up in this town called Dorking, which you’re probably familiar with, from the classic ride, sorry, and I’m very familiar, you know, the weekends kind of seeing, you know, the the kind of, I say the kind of more sportive rides coming through the town. But actually, what that served is actually an inspiration for more people’s go. Actually, that was quite fun. I should try that. And I think the data we’re seeing through Year in Sport that we’ve done anecdotally, through Metro data, that actually we’ve got a lot more 18 to 34 year olds, who are now also discovering the joy of active transportation.

And again, Metro data is telling us that it’s not just, you know, the weekend, you know, the Saturday morning at 10am, in the Surrey Hills or on the the kind of Yorkshire Dales it’s actually taking place on the streets of Manchester, or the streets of London, etc. And I think that’s what we’re hoping is that story through community or athletes, as you know, we’re calling it that that helps planners to see that trend is is not just, you know, the kind of Lycra

brigade Who are you know, cycling and I would all use what the same people that are cycling at the weekends, you know, on the kind of right sorry, classics or up in the Yorkshire Dales are also the same people that are using bike lanes. And equally as important when we’re thinking about counting.

Carlton Reid 11:30
Of course, you’re not getting

the invisible in American terms, it’s called the invisible cyclists. So these are often Latino.

Basically poor people on bikes, who are definitely not going to be using Strava. But going to using bikes, and then they call them invisible cyclists, because

they’re not on bicycles that perhaps

an enthusiast would ride, but they are using bicycles and all power to their elbow, but power to their knees. Now, you’re not capturing them. So if you’re not capturing a significant number of people who are using

the roads, does that not suggest that you’re missing an important chunk of people who are not using? You just can’t capture everybody? And how important is that?

Tom Knights 12:27
Yeah, really, really good point. And I guess a couple of bits on that is that

essentially no data set, you know, the world is accurate, you think about a, you know, a bicycle counsellor on the embankment or, you know, in the middle of Manchester, or even in the rural area, you know, if someone doesn’t go through that specific kind of counting station, as it were, you’re not being picked up in the count. And I think that’s what Strava Metro is really kind of aiming to do is essentially colouring the map with all the blank spots that aren’t being picked up. And being free, which is, again, one of these kind of opportunities to kind of get this data into the masses, allows transportation planners allows Safe Streets advocates, anyone who’s focused on transportation equity and environmental racism to dive into that data and go, Okay, looks like actually, there’s people going through this counting station here. But actually, Strava Metro is also showing us that people are going down this route. So what’s interesting what’s going on there. And again, you’re quite right to call out that the heat map, for example, in, you know, maybe underrepresented areas, or places that don’t necessarily have the same political will have, you know,

more affluent areas who have perhaps built cycle lanes or made their streets more attractive from things like heat islands, you think about kind of cities outside of the UK that suffer a lot from high temperatures, you know, the streets are not necessarily designed for being walkable and bikable. That’s what we’re really hoping we can also use the Strava data to show what’s not happening, as well as what’s happening. And again, a lot of the work that Metro is involved in is ties back into this kind of social impact piece. It’s not just, you know, we obviously want this data to be used by, you know, transportation planners, but we’re also hoping we can start to, you know, work a lot more with, you know, say advocacy groups, anyone likes easy, bold environmental racism and transportation equity, to really kind of look at that data, and metrics looks, it’s been designed that anyone including myself, I’m not a geospatial professional, but I can see, you know, through a map and looking at certain areas where people are cycling and when they’re not cycling, but also we want to build a product and I can’t really, you know, say I’m not necessarily holding the Strava product side, but we want to build an experience, which is all encompassing for everyone on there, but I definitely understand your point about the barriers to entry, you know, just in general, you cycling you need to have a bike to join Strava you need a mobile phone that supports you know, obviously your Strava although we do have connections with lots of fitness devices, but again, that comes at a cost, but hopefully, the more people that learn about

Metro and the authenticity and the kind of the fact that it’s free. The fact that Strava is free to join, it gives people a sense of empowerment that actually, I can change something that’s happening on my street. And that’s a big part of the messaging that, you know, I’m working on, and certainly have been working on for the last five years, because as you say,

maybe the association with Strava is it’s just for athletes, or people who are doing k runs, and Q RMS, etc. But actually, what we’re seeing is that more and more people are turning to Strava, to kind of log their activities, and hopefully through when they learn about Metro, they’ll realise that they’re actually changing their communities, because that data is really kind of playing a part in helping to shape your better infrastructure or, essentially, build a political case for more investment.

Carlton Reid 15:45
Good point. So somebody like me, who’s been a Strava member since 2013 I discovered by looking into my profile this morning,

Tom Knights 15:53
and then thank you for your long term membership.

Carlton Reid 15:57
I would say, I’m not a frequent updater. But I should be, shouldn’t I? So what you’re saying is people like me who have it on our phones, don’t use it, you know, because I don’t consider myself an athlete. Yeah, that should be turning on, for even everyday journeys, because it helps.

Tom Knights 16:18
So I’ve been, you know, I’d have that in writing. And, as it quite, you know, when we kind of go out to advocacy kind of events and talk to kind of people because I think, as you’ve just said, you know, the more people that discover about this, you know, cycle of like Strava, being free and then wanting to make streets better. And then Metro, obviously, enabling that, we think there’s a really compelling story. And I genuinely there’s, this is such a passionate thing to kind of work on. And I think we’re very lucky, you know, part of the metro team to be able to have these conversations with partners all over the world. And I think we are we’ve met at Velo-city a couple of times before. And the one thing that comes up all the time at these conferences is, you know, how are we measuring it? Or how do we win the case for safer streets? And, you know, this is our answer to that and to say, well, let’s come together and bring all these amazing datasets that are available out there. You know, let’s build a case and get people to see that this is available.

Carlton Reid 17:12
And those datasets, the expectation is, from your point of view, that a transportation planning department will be using multiple sources, they won’t be just using Metro. They’ll be using their own counting devices, hopefully, if they’ve got them. And they’ll be plotting everything. And they’ll have some sort of, will they have a desktop with everything on? Or have they got like a look at lots of different screens?

Tom Knights 17:40
Yeah, so what we hear from from foreigners, they use a lot of geospatial kind of software, you know, there’s obviously various different enterprise kind of grade level software and data analytics tools where you can always ingest multiple sorts of data. So we make extracting the data from from Metro, which is, I’m sure, hopefully, everyone realises completely anonymized, obviously, and then also aggregated, we make that very easy for partners to essentially download, and then upload back into, like, say, all of this data planning tools.

And obviously, you know, there’s multiple data sets out there. And largely, like I say, we use the same mapping tools as well. So OpenStreetMap is really important, you know, in terms of, actually, how do you paint a picture of your infrastructure in your area. And like, say, planners will then use that to build reports to kind of maybe produce research, and then essentially come up with this kind of our number, which says, you know, for every X number of trips on Strava, you can say that there’s 100 trips of normal, non non Strava usage, for example, send your Strava.

But, and we’ve seen a couple of examples that, you know, the Office of National Statistics have done that, in rural remote areas, Transport for London, have been using it to kind of model traffic lights through London and the timing that you get on green times, you know, and it’s not just Strava D. So you don’t want to build cities just around one particular user. But that’s why being like I say, a free tool to do that allows us to kind of

plug into all these other datasets.

Unknown Speaker 19:12
Let’s let’s go backwards a little bit into

Carlton Reid 19:16
that, that I’ll use your term, the athlete, so you basically got a rider? Yeah, going along. I’ll use like, even though I’m like to 50 miles away. I’ll use London as an example. So going along the Embankment. Yeah, yeah, yes, you’ve anonymized all the data. So this is not you know, you know, you don’t know this particular person on a bike at all. You can’t track anything. But you can see at a granular level, whether they are on the road or whether they are on the Embankment cycleway, and you can see where they make that you know, sudden turn like there’s a there’s a few turns on the embankment where you’ve got to make quite a shift to get on to the cycleway. So you in Strava Metro, you can see that too.

happening?

Tom Knights 20:01
Exactly that so we can see, like I say the, I think there’s something like 420 million edges in the whole world. So edge is referred to as streets on OpenStreetMap. And if you’ve got some enthusiastic mapping listeners on this podcast, hopefully they might be able to write in and correct me in some tell me how many exactly edges there are. But if you think about the world as all of these kind of different edges and routes that are built up, where there’s been a Strava activity gone over the top of that, and, of course, where there’s been a minimum of free, which allows us to kind of aggregate those activities, we can exactly that show you where people have turned left, how many trips went off, on a certain direction? Was this route busier because of a road closure one week? Or was this route more improved year on year because of a safer kind of passageway? You know, I appreciate we’re talkinh about cycling here. But if you think about running and walking, you know, was this improved? Because there was better lighting? Or were more people using this pathway, because, you know, there was a kind of nice new path put down. So I think this is like it’s this kind of colouring in the map with all the other kind of datasets that are available. And then Strava can kind of tell you that picture of where, you know, there has been activity.

Carlton Reid 21:12
So when Nick Ferrari goes on the radio and says, I got stuck behind a cyclist on the Embankment, they should be on the cycleway. You could or anybody could go to Strava Metro, and say, well, actually, that must have been just a completely

unusual person. Because look, 99.9% of of cyclists are going on to the cycleway. And here look, we can show you the heat map where that is happening. That’s what you can do?

Tom Knights 21:42
Exactly that. And like I say you want one colour, I would say is it’s not anyone. So that was one of the caveats to the authenticity of the kind of Metro project. And I know that word authenticity thrown a lot you know about but that the only reason Metro works is because the Strava community buy into this idea that the data has been used for something good, not for commercial purposes. So not anyone can access Metro, but TfL can access it, for example, in your example of the bike lanes in London, London cycling campaign could access this because of course, you know, they’re involved in advocacy work.

Unfortunately, LBC wouldn’t be able to access this, because obviously they’re using it for other purposes.

But actually anyone involved in safe infrastructure, and we hope that this is it, you know, when the the transportation teams, all these different medical authorities or local authorities can actually go, actually what we have seen on the street is that X percentage of people are using this bike lane on there. And that’s, that’s what I think it’s going to take to kind of not win the argument, but really convinced people that bike lanes are being used, and they’re a good investment. They’re just incredibly efficient, because you never see anyone in traffic. And then yes, people are constantly moving.

Carlton Reid 22:53
Yes. Now, I know you’re not on this side of it. So it’s a slightly unfair question to ask, but I’d like one I’d like you to tell me about anyway. So at the end, not not now. But at the end, I’d like you to go through and just tell people how much it costs to, you know, go the full fat version of Strava. But before you do that, and that’s going to be the end anyway, just let’s just, you know, just confirm this right now, you do not need to use Strava Metro for is free for transportation planners, anybody else. But you don’t need any, you’re not going to get hassled to become a pro member.

To be one of these people like me who just want to do good for the community by turning metro or Strava on for our normal daily rides, you won’t be charged for that you can get a free membership that will do everything apart from all the pro level stuff that you don’t need anyway, if you’re just one of these lapsed people?

Tom Knights 23:56
Yeah, it’s possible. And so, you know, Strava is like has always operated on that kind of freemium model, as it were, that you know, at its simplest, you can download the app, join the community upload rise. And then if you’ve made that road public, so I should have added that caveat as well, that will contribute to metric because of course, you know, people might want to hide the start or the end of their journeys, they won’t count. Some people might want to also hide a certain route. But hopefully, like say when they hear about the project and go actually, this is a pretty good idea, I should start uploading my routes and maybe, you know, further down the line as they kind of start to explore Strava they want to kind of look at a route or they want to kind of go oh, that could be quite a good tool to have because I’ve got more into my cycling journey, then yes, of course. Strava is open for them. But at its source and Metro, they are both free.

Carlton Reid 24:46
Mm hmm. Okay. At this point, I would like to cut away to my colleague, David who will give a short break.

David Bernstein 24:56
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Carlton Reid 25:57
Thanks, David. And we’re back with Tom Knights of Strava Metro, and I was looking at your LinkedIn profile. And as you do when you when you want to talk to somebody and you want to find out their background, and you’ve kind of similar background to me, in that you did classics you did you did like nothing to do with what you’re doing in your day job. You did like it will tell me what you did it was Exeter University exactly what you did.

So I kind of found found myself essentially looking at degree subjects where, you know, I was interested in more the kind of anthropological aspects of history and actually Classical Studies, and I’m always very much told by classic students that classics versus Classical Studies is a very different subjects. Obviously, one focuses heavily on Latin language in Greek texts, whereas Classical Studies is more about, you know, the discovery of what was going on during the Roman Empire in the Greek Empire period. So that was always a passion of mine about kind of understanding society, and maybe what was the kind of political kind of themes at the time and, you know, fascinated about some communities on there. And, of course, the story for the dad joke, but like, most people, when you study history, there’s no future in it.

I’ll use that.

Tom Knights 27:24
But yeah, obviously, you know, that allowed me, you know, I suppose to back in the kind of early 2000s, when I was at university, you know, it was a very privileged time, when they weren’t necessarily crippling university fees and structure. So it allowed me to kind of study a subject, which was more of a passion project. But of course, you know, didn’t necessarily elude me into kind of a specific career working in British museum or on an archaeological site in antiquity.

And actually, in hindsight, I think geography would have been more of my passion, because that’s ultimately what’s kind of landed me in this area of transportation and maps and bicycles. Geography was always my kind of first passion.

Carlton Reid 28:04
But you’re a man after my own heart, because I did a degree, that was nothing connected to what I eventually did. And that was religious studies and comparative religion. And I did Hebrew, as well. So I did do a not a classic language, but I did a language that was known to antiquity. I’d say, yeah, we’ve come similar backgrounds. But then you’ve if you look at your career progression, it went very quickly from something that’s completely useless to and affect your career. If I look at your career arc has been certainly tech. So from the very first it was you went from classics, blummin’ heck,, to tech, that’s that’s a leap. And then you’ve carried on that, that that trajectory.

Tom Knights 28:45
Yeah, definitely, I think that kind of, you know, almost juxtaposes the kind of interest in history, but I think a lot of my friends maybe went into, you know, in the early 2000s, like most people kind of found their way going into financial services, I’d always kind of been more interested in the world of tech and technology. And then working my way up through various kind of research firms and kind of people teams in that world of headhunting and kind of early days of, of search, when it comes to kind of jobs and careers. Allow me I suppose just to suppose learn a lot more about the world of tech, and then actually through interviewing people and and candidates and helping people on their search journey. That then opened my eyes into this whole world of kind of software, which again, early 2000s was really interesting, and then tied into that passion for sports and maps and mapping, landed, actually initially at a company when I lived in Hong Kong for five or six years, which was doing event registration for marathons and five K’s and stuff like that, which is obviously very relevant to the Strava world nowadays. But it was when Strava Metro came along and said that they were looking for someone to essentially grow the community on Strava Metro in Europe. It was too good an opportunity not to kind of put my CV forward so

You know, tied into all my passions around mapping and transportation.

Carlton Reid 30:04
And, and getting out there and doing stuff. As in Yes. Being an athlete if you want to use that term.

Tom Knights 30:11
Exactly. And you know, that’s a it’s an interesting point to kind of call up. But essentially the the advice, actually the CEO at the time, who was a gentleman called James, and actually Michael Hogarth, the founder of Strava, they said, The most important thing you can do in this role at Strava Metro is get out there and see bike lanes and infrastructure, or really understand what the kind of partners are doing. So over the last five years, that’s kind of allowed me to get involved and actually see some of these projects. And you know, one of the best moments of the year or certainly at conferences, or events we go to whenever there’s a bike parade, and I’ve never had a bike tour or a technical tour around the cities that you can visit, and you can really start to see the, you know, how those numbers come to life, actually, in the physical world, because, again, we’ve focused a lot on on this talk, we talked a lot about the Embankment. But actually, there’s a whole multitude of examples around the European continent, and also across the world of bike lanes, which we visited and gone. Gosh, that’s really interesting, what innovative design and oh, look at how that impacted this number of people.

Carlton Reid 31:13
Tell me about your day them. So you’ve got somebody flagged out that yes, sometimes travelling around a bit. So what what do you do, Tom, scribe, what you actually do to people who don’t know what you might be doing day to day?

Tom Knights 31:28
I love it. So my biggest kind of responsibility is to grow the awareness of Strava Metro. And obviously, the more people that hear about Metro, hopefully, from listening to this, the more people might go, okay, that’s really interesting. I didn’t know that. So essentially, that’s our, our main focus is to speak to the folks that active travel England through to the city of Paris, and obviously, the, the onset of zoom and online meetings has made that a lot more accessible now, which is great. So as much as I’d love to go visit all these places, a lot of them are done by kind of video conferencing, which is allowed us to scale and obviously tell the story in a kind of much more scalable way. But where possible, I’ll always try and visit partners and learn about what they’re doing on the ground. And then actually, one of the biggest kind of

tasks this time around is to then how do we communicate these back to the Strava community, and then get all these 120 million athletes who are on Strava, to actually learn about these projects that their movement has contributed to, because that’s going to be the power of when they understand that your cycles work, even though it’s providing you with your exercise or your means of transportation. It’s also having a big impact on how, for example, you transport Greater Manchester or Transport for London to building your roads and your cycling. So if it helps with that extra bit of motivation, to get out of bed on a kind of cold January morning to kind of, you know, get cycling or walking to work, then, you know, we’ve done our job.

Carlton Reid 32:57
Isn’t there an argument and I am playing devil’s advocate here a little bit, council employee, a transportation but oh, maybe a councillor could actually use your data, which shows us lots and lots of people using a certain road? At a certain time? Yeah. And you would say,

to a council?

Officer? Well, look, we need to improve this route. Because look, how many cyclists are using it, we need to improve that. So it’s more comfortable besides blah, blah, blah. But, you know, a councillor could use that exact same argument and say, Well, why do we need to improve anything? You’re just telling me there’s loads of cyclists using this road? Great, job done?

Tom Knights 33:44
Well, I think the answer that is the kind of the theory that maybe, you know, a lot of highways and motorways around the world have used, which is what more lanes will fix it. And what did what happens when you get one more loan, we’ll fix it, you get more cars driving? Well, I think the principle for that applies in terms of, if you keep fixing and increasing the number of cycle paths and bike lanes, then you’ll see an increase in even more cyclists on there. So that would be my kind of caveat to say is, you know, the same way that we saw, you know, mass growth of roads and kind of infrastructure around the country, the same way that you could, if you keep investing, you’ll, you’ll see those increases come even more, as well. So it’s just the start. I think this is the kind of the key point. And, you know, this has only really been what I’ve been in the industry for what five or six years intended, specifically around the world of transportation planning. And I’ve, I’ve read your in as another student of history, read your history of bike lanes, and what we’re seeing is nothing new. You know, this obviously happened in the 1920s, as you’ve written about, it’s happened, you know, the early 1950s. And we hope that obviously, this bike boom is going to continue, but we know that the secret to that is obviously infrastructure, but the extra secret sauce and I’m gonna say this with my Strava hat on so apologies is that you know,

other people keep other people motivated. And that’s where Strava comes into it as a motivation machine.

Carlton Reid 35:06
So that game, gamification of it almost. Exactly, which is a good segue, thank you very much into my next question, which will be at the White House. So that’s a that’s a gamification, so, so just tell me exactly I know it’s not UK, but this is a, this is a podcast that goes … it’s very popular in America. So Strava, not Strava Metro, but Strava is working with the White House on something. So just tell us what what you’re doing. And then the gameifacation angle of that?

Tom Knights 35:34
Yeah. So from obviously, my understanding internally of the team that’s been working on that is very similar to other kind of projects or campaigns, or let’s say gamification, or challenges that we would work on this time, though, there’s obviously a social impact cause attached to it, I think what’s happened and from what I understand is that the White House, obviously have a campaign or a kind of cause that they’re looking to mobilise the community on, they had a commercial partner in work, which is, you know, obviously, kind of, I suppose, helping to kind of measure that through the through the wearable side. But the White House is partnering with Strava, to support physical activity, as part of its challenges to end hunger and build healthier communities. Now, as part of the social impact strategy, let’s say the call to action is to raise awareness of that campaign through movement. And obviously, that movement there is on Strava. And it’s very similar to lots of other campaigns that we might work with, from brands, but also also other charities, you know, that might want to also mobilise their community on Strava, through that kind of challenge format.

Carlton Reid 36:38
So that’s a US initiative. Obviously, it’s the White House as in the White House. What other stuff might you be doing UK or maybe even worldwide, similar to that?

Tom Knights 36:50
Well, I think ultimately, it’s if if we’ve done our job, right, and you know, the more people that learn about these challenges for good for social impact, we hope that people will start to see Strava as a platform, where they can actually start to tell their message to what’s a very engaged community. You know, like I say, not every cyclist is on Strava. But we do have, you know, in the UK, again, I’m going to correct myself on every one in seven adults has joined Strava, or something around 15% of the population. So that’s not everyone, but it is a very engaged audience. It’s bonkers, actually. So how many What’s that in millions? Is that like 10 million downloads or something, I will come back with some specific figures. And James can help with that.

On on, on our team, but Yeah, certainly, we obviously are in the millions of users in the UK. And of course, that’s a really engaged community who are using Strava a for their movement, but also then can attach that through a challenge for a social impact campaign, or brand campaign. And again, these challenges are completely optional for people to dive into should they wish to. And I think that’s one of the kind of key things to get at the Strava community, you know, having that say and what they do, and that’s what’s probably kept people coming back stronger over time, is that they get they have a choice in what they can join. And the challenges that the the team in Bristol, who in the UK run those operations for similar to the White House challenge, they do a fantastic job of making sure that there’s some really exciting challenges to come onto the platform and keep people motivated.

Carlton Reid 38:26
So can you now tell me

the different pricing options, so people are like, they’ve got the free version? They maybe like me that don’t.

They will now start using the free version a bit more for the reasons we’ve discussed before. But if you wanted to up the game, what would you be paying? And what would you be getting?

Tom Knights 38:46
So for UK based users, obviously Strava premium is an option and that it costs £8.99 per month, or £54.99 per year. Obviously, there’s a freemium model, in terms of the kind of ability to join Strava and not have to, like, say, necessarily choose to subscribe. But again, the compelling products, and the opportunity that the product team in the US and all the amazing kind of engineers that work on Strava have built an experience that should you wish to subscribe. There’s a really compelling reason to mostly through our amazing routing, mapping discovery tools, looking at new routes to explore. Obviously, like saying you’ve got access to

technical data, should you wish to kind of see things like your heart rate and health and kind of segments and leaderboards, etc. So there’s something on Strava for a lot of folks, and of course, you know, that community element and clubs and groups is really exciting. And another way for local authorities and governments to really drive engagement back to Metro, for example.

Carlton Reid 39:54
And then you got things like integration with fat map so you can like do all sorts of stuff with that as well because it’s

Strava. Did you buy fat map? Is that was that?

Tom Knights 40:02
Yeah, so there was a strategic acquisition of fat map and you know, the the, that’s

the exact date has been going on for the last year. So again, all these amazing tools and some mapping tools are such a good driver for people to discover the world around them. And I think that’s what’s really exciting is that, you know, yes, you might go on a bike ride and you know, kind of cycle from A to B on one of the cycle highways. But at the weekend, that same bike hopefully, is being used to then go, that that route is quite interesting, or I saw my friend do that route. You know, the other day that looks like I could probably do that I’ve got a spare couple of hours. And it’s basically just keeping people active. Again, you’ve probably heard this one for every minute spent on Strava, you can attribute 30 minutes of activity back to your kind of daily life. So rather than that, and that’s because you could you look at heat map, you see, you’re in an unusual destination, you don’t you’re you’re at your bike, and you fire up the heat map. It’s like, everybody’s gone that way. That way, then is that what you mean? Yeah, essentially, you know, like I say, you might, or it might just be on your activity feed that, you know, kind of been suggested a route or suggested a, an area to kind of move through. And I think that’s what’s really exciting is when you get somewhere new, you know that there’s a community, because obviously, we’re a global community that has cycled there before. And I say you can either look at the heat map, or you might be able to see someone’s route. And they’ve recommended it as a kind of place to ride. That inspiration you get from not just

like, say, scrolling through maybe another social network or Doom scrolling, should I say, hopefully, that movement and inspiration of people being active for something that’s going to be a positive driver for people being, you know, engaged on Strava.

Carlton Reid 41:44
There is another active travel analogy, which sometimes gets wheeled out. And that is, you can’t tell

why you need a bridge from the number of people swimming across the river. Because they aren’t going to swim across the river with a bike, they probably aren’t going to swim across the river full stop. But when you put a bridge in it suddenly get, you know, the heat map would go crazy. But once you put the bridge in, so is any of your cleverness your your text, can any of it can I spot? Well, if you only had something here, it would open up, you know, is this something that you can pinpoint that you can say that a bridge analogy can be used?

Tom Knights 42:25
Absolutely. And thank you so much for asking that, because that’s something we just updated last year in our metro product that obviously the planners and the transportation teams can see. And a lot of it ties back into some of the the kind of accessibility transportation equity, environmental racism that we talked about. What we’ve shown is that, when you put a pin on the map, we’ve also been able to kind of draw almost like a kind of circle around what’s accessible within say, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, etc. And people can see data within that kind of circle, which, again, will show you that where there’s a massive motorway with no bridge crossing, that’s that part of the community can’t access the park on the other side of it, or where there’s, for example, a big brownfield site where there’s been industrial use, it’s not safe to cycle through. So people have kind of diverted around it, we had a really good example, actually, recently in Germany, where, you know, there was a curb on the side of a bike lane. And you could see very clearly actually three desire lines on the on the actual grass and the verge that people were kind of going off this curb through the woods to kind of cut out maybe a mile. And again, using Strava, Metro, this German transportation team who are based in Frankfurt, actually, I’ll share the example with you because it’s fascinating see how even at a really small local level, these little changes can make a massive difference. And they’re not expensive to do, I think it only cost them something a couple of 1000 euros to drop the curb, because they then saw that that was having an impact on where people were then cycling. So you know, the famous analogy of when it snows, you can really see the designs of cars. Actually, when you look at the design on the heat map, and then in turn, look at that on Strava, you can start to see Oh, that’s interesting. And again, another great example that was Hartfordshire county council had a bicycle counsellor in one location. And they realised that the Strava count was actually higher than the bicycle counter. And they thought well hold on what’s happening there. And actually, there was a kind of dangerous crossing just slightly further up from this bicycle counter. And they were able to then use the Strava data to kind of, I suppose understand that actually, people were going this way because it was a safer journey. And that’s the these are the kind of insights that yes, we want to do the big high level projects and you know, make sure that we get new infrastructure and cycleways across major cities. But actually the really exciting ones when local advocacy groups or local councils who don’t necessarily have big budgets for you to accessing data can make these small changes and really improve these kind of everyday life for their community.

Carlton Reid 44:56
Can the Netherlands which obviously every week, look

Up to is like, the absolute nirvana of cycling. Do you like do you have like, Dutch people go, Oh, we could use this. It’s like, Jesus, they even removing even more, you haven’t done so. So basically, can you improve the Dutch cycle network?

Tom Knights 45:15
Yeah, definitely. And actually, we’ve had some interesting conversations with the folks over in Copenhagen, and obviously, in Amsterdam, and across the Netherlands as well. So not just Denmark and Holland. But, of course, the Netherlands is such a stays a bellwether of the cycling industry, but they’re always looking at new ways to improve, you know, the technology that they’re using and counting data. We are in Leuven, just at the end of November for the policy network events. And again, we are understanding that the kind of technical university they are leaving, we’ve been using metro to kind of understand, you know, and this is a really forward thinking Belgium city, which has got great cycle access, but they still need data to understand and counter. So rather than, you know, developing another app to count people, and getting the community to download it, they’ve seen that correlation between actually Strava and Strava, Metro.

So again, they don’t need to necessarily go and kind of reinvent the wheel, so to speak with, you know, building another kind of engagement tool with local community to get them to join, because Metro is hopefully fulfilling that service.

Carlton Reid 46:20
Brilliant, Tom that’s been absolutely fascinating. And we could go on for a good amount of time, probably on Classics literature, even while we discussed, what’s your Roman Empire? Yes, exactly.

But we can’t, because we people just won’t listen to 10 hours of us chatting away.

Tom Knights 46:42
I’m sure they will.

Carlton Reid 46:43
Now, could you tell us where people can find out? I’m sure people know where you can get onto Strava. But how they find out about Strava Metro, and and maybe how they can contact you?

Tom Knights 46:56
Yeah, definitely. So the best way to get in touch with myself and travel metric is on metro.strava.com. And then on that website, you’ll be able to learn more about case studies about how cities how researchers, communities have used the actual kind of practical steps of the data. There’s also some frequently asked questions on there about you know, privacy and how the data is used, etc. And then most importantly, there’s an apply button. So you can click apply for access. And then what we ask is that a you’re a organisation that is involved in working to improve active transportation. If you’re a consultancy, or an engineering firm, we also accept those applications as well. As long as you’re under contract with say, for example, the local government or the city authority, we know that Metro kind of appearing as a line item as it were.

And then, again, like saying, at its source, transportation planners around the world can can access, we ask that you use a work email, not a Gmail email. So normally an org or dot.gov, etc. And then just a short abstract, essentially, of how you’re going to use the data. And so then we know that it’s being used for a positive kind of cause, and then you will give you access to the area of interest that you’ve selected. Be it London, Birmingham, Somerset, wherever it is, as long as there’s been Strava activity, you can start to really start to see trends and patterns, then hopefully feed that into other datasets to build the infrastructure.

Carlton Reid 48:20
And Nick.Ferrari@LBC.co.uk or whatever his email address will just be rejected out of hand, that’s nefarious use?

Tom Knights 48:28
Yeah, I reserve the right not to comment on on LBC and Nick.

Carlton Reid 48:34
Thanks for listening to Episode 349 of the Spokesen podcast brought to you in association with Tern bicycles. Show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com The next episode – 350 – will be out next month. Meanwhile, get out there and ride …